Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query


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Offline hfactor66

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Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« on: June 06, 2018, 02:51:56 AM »
According to the competition rules for this game, flying as Sonic & Tails together is not allowed due to a glitch that allows Sonic & Tails to earn two rings even though they only collected one.

However, never is it mentioned that I can't make Tails fly, I just can't fly while holding onto Tails.

Technicalitieeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeessssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

Using this, I was able to make Tails fly up and collect the 10 rings without ever flying as Sonic & Tails together. (actually in the video, I got 8 of them with Tails, and got the last 2 with Sonic's lightning shield lol but you get the idea.) Video below. I got bored and recently started playing this again.



My question is, is this allowed? I didn't want to post it to the charts without confirmation, since this kinda feels like a gray area for this rule, (or maybe I'm just dumb) and no one else seems to have attempted this, as simple as this is honestly.

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #1 on: June 10, 2018, 08:50:46 PM »
>Asking this forum for rulings in 2018

Fairly certain no one's even monitoring this place anymore.

Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #2 on: June 10, 2018, 09:27:16 PM »
There should be someone active on this site that can(will) answer this question. If not, then that is a problem which should be resolved. This is a relevant question about competition on the site and it would not be the first time a forum post or discussion ,such as this one, did not receive recognition from any of the site administrators.

As far as the ring attack goes, the run looks like it clearly does not break the competition rules, but that is just my opinion. Nice find.

Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2018, 05:29:22 AM »
>Asking this forum for rulings in 2018

Fairly certain no one's even monitoring this place anymore.
I know there's a discord server, I just don't have discord. lol

There should be someone active on this site that can(will) answer this question. If not, then that is a problem which should be resolved. This is a relevant question about competition on the site and it would not be the first time a forum post or discussion ,such as this one, did not receive recognition from any of the site administrators.

As far as the ring attack goes, the run looks like it clearly does not break the competition rules, but that is just my opinion. Nice find.

Yeah, forum activity is very low nowadays, this is about the only reason I would use it. I didn't think the run broke any rules either, since Sonic & Tails never flew together, which is the only restriction to using Tails' fly ability as Sonic listed in the rules, but I still thought I would ask, since as I said in the original post, it seemed sort of like a gray area for this rule. I'm sure its original intent was to discourage using Tails' ability to fly altogether, (or using AI Tails at all as Sonic) so as to prevent players accidentally getting credit twice for a single ring, which is understandable. However, it doesn't seem like anyone considered the possibility of making Tails fly as Sonic and avoiding catching onto him to obtain rings Sonic can't reach on his own, hence why I decided to ask.

I know, it's a revolutionary tactic, right? It'd be cool to bump Sonic up to the 235 max Tails & Knuckles can obtain with ease.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2018, 05:39:32 AM by hfactor66 »

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2018, 01:11:39 PM »
Were you controlling Tails in his flight? Controlling both S+T in game modes that have S+T is generally disallowed.

Offline Zeupar

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2018, 03:10:51 PM »
My question is, is this allowed? I didn't want to post it to the charts without confirmation, since this kinda feels like a gray area for this rule, (or maybe I'm just dumb) and no one else seems to have attempted this, as simple as this is honestly.

Yes, it's allowed. That clever strategy has been used in the past. We appreciate that you asked.

This is a relevant question about competition on the site and it would not be the first time a forum post or discussion ,such as this one, did not receive recognition from any of the site administrators.

You are completely right, and I apologize for not getting back to you sooner in that other topic. The questions raised in your thread are more complex, though, so I was planning to message you on Discord for a more efficient discussion. I will seize this opportunity to finally do that. Hopefully, we can get Vicklaw and others interested involved as well.

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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #6 on: June 13, 2018, 04:22:57 AM »
Were you controlling Tails in his flight? Controlling both S+T in game modes that have S+T is generally disallowed.

Ah, so I see. I did use Sonic to try and steer Tails towards them, which is easier than it sounds when he's off screen, evidenced by the fact that I just up and got the last two with Sonic's lightning shield. I can't control where Tails flies directly, except for how high he goes. Otherwise he just follows Sonic. A second controller was not used to control Tails in any way. I don't even know how you would get a second player to control Tails on iOS in no save mode, lol. This was done on real hardware, no emulation. My iPhone SE has built in screen capture, which makes me happy.

Yes, it's allowed. That clever strategy has been used in the past. We appreciate that you asked.

"If something seems iffy, you probably should not be doing it. Or at least check with someone before you do." I mean, it's right there in general rules. Nice to see I'm not the first one to try this, but it seems like I'm the first to try this on S1 2013. If everything has been cleared up, this thread can be closed and if this is all within the game's rules and general rules, I'll bump Sonic up to 235 after five years since the game's release.

I love pioneering RA stuff.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 04:28:57 AM by hfactor66 »

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2018, 10:52:57 AM »
Well, what's happening in S&K is that tails is grabbing the rings through his own AI control. As long as you're just fudging with Tails' AI and not directly controlling Tails, you're fine.

Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #8 on: June 14, 2018, 02:40:32 PM »
Well, what's happening in S&K is that tails is grabbing the rings through his own AI control. As long as you're just fudging with Tails' AI and not directly controlling Tails, you're fine.
I watched Rusty's RA vid on Death Egg 1 to compare it to what I've done here, and in that run, I could see he manipulated Tails using Sonic to drop down a hole and grab 16 otherwise unobtainable rings. No player control, just AI manipulation. The same could be said about what I've done here, manipulating Tails to fly up using Sonic to grab some otherwise unobtainable rings. The noticeable difference though is that getting AI Tails to fly up in this game requires some direct input from the player to get Tails to fly and to keep him in the air, which is why you see me jumping constantly whenever Tails is airborne, because otherwise he just comes back down. You get him to fly by pressing jump twice while looking up, the first press makes Tails jump, and the second one makes him fly. It's sort of like a one and a half player thing, since you're meant to grab onto Tails, THEN you can freely control where Tails flies, but since I didn't grab onto him, as it's forbidden by the game's rules, I have to manipulate where he goes while keeping him in the air.

As I said, I can manipulate where AI Tails goes by moving Sonic around once he's in the air, so I don't have 100% control of Tails, but I have to use Sonic in a specific way to get him in the air and to keep him airborne. If up+jump as Sonic to get Tails to fly using Sonic and spamming jump to keep him in the air counts as direct control, then I suppose that would nullify this run.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2018, 02:58:04 PM by hfactor66 »

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #9 on: June 14, 2018, 05:47:58 PM »
This is honestly a gray area that I haven't seen discussed. I'm surprised it wasn't brought up when Mania came out, either. Tails has similar behavior there.

This needs an open discussion, but imo this type of Tails control should be made explicitly legal as opposed to the typical 2P control.

And in the case of Mania (Not S12013 for obvious reasons) I'd suggest that flying as S+T should be perfectly legal.

Offline hfactor66

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #10 on: June 14, 2018, 08:08:16 PM »
This is honestly a gray area that I haven't seen discussed. I'm surprised it wasn't brought up when Mania came out, either. Tails has similar behavior there.

This needs an open discussion, but imo this type of Tails control should be made explicitly legal as opposed to the typical 2P control.

And in the case of Mania (Not S12013 for obvious reasons) I'd suggest that flying as S+T should be perfectly legal.
I think in the case of Mania, this wasn't really an issue because there was no glitch with S+T where they earn credit twice for one ring while flying together, so there wasn't a need to ban the use of flying together as S+T, whereas here in S1 2013 it exists to prevent players from doubling as many rings as they can.

CyberScore's rule on this reads "Flying as Sonic & Tails in such a way as to obtain credit twice for any single ring is disallowed." Essentially, you can still fly as S+T, but if you earn credit twice for a single ring, your run is nullified. It does allow for more possibilities as Sonic (like 155 Marble 3) but it also seems more difficult to enforce without video proof, although I suppose the 1st place mandatory video proof rule can take care of that, but I'm not sure how strictly it's enforced.

I'm personally fine with banning flying as S+T together completely, because it makes sense why the rule exists, but I also feel like a runner shouldn't be punished for accidentally grabbing onto Tails and jumping off without collecting any rings when they were trying to set something up and failed to avoid grabbing onto him, as I've done many times in practice on GHZ 1 and Scrap Brain 3, where I was experimenting with a possible technique similar to my GHZ 1 technique here to top Sonic's long standing 123 rings record.

Had to reset many times due to briefly flying as S+T together in recording my GHZ 1 run to showcase for this thread. It doesn't look that hard, but if Tails is right on top of you when you put him into flight, you're pretty much guaranteed to grab onto him. >_> that's why I was usually trying to move around and put him into flight simultaneously.

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Re: Sonic 1 2013 - an RA Query
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2018, 06:50:18 AM »
Just chiming into this dead site :P to say, concurring SDM, I think it's pretty sensible to allow cleverly manipulating Tails' AI (so long as gameplay's kept 1P), in keeping with the classics like the strat Zeupar pointed out, and the rules should be revised to explicitly clarify this.

One could argue both ways for allowing S+T flight in S1 2013 so long as double ring credits aren't earned, vs. banning it outright; personally I think the former, à la CyberScore's ruling, is best and the lesser of two evils. I feel players have a responsibility to ensure they don’t earn double ring credits with S+T flight, and if it's too difficult to manually track they should record their runs, which I don't think is much to ask for this in this day and age to be honest; I also feel, like hfactor66, players shouldn't be penalized for accidentally grabbing onto Tails where it doesn't otherwise affect the run (which can unnecessarily complicate some strats).

Ultimately more active runners of the affected games need to discuss both of these rulings (on TSSC or wherever convenient) and come to a consensus; it's good of you to check and raise the discussion hfactor66.

On a side note, the "difficult to verify without video proof" argument could be extended to numerous legal tricks and at the end of the day, you have to operate on a merit and trust system in cases where video proof isn't mandatory (but yeah, it is here universally for 1st place stats anyway, at least).

Finally I also feel it's a given S+T flying in Mania should be legal as there's no reason it shouldn't be (we still need official rules for Mania derp).
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