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Welcome Center => News and Updates => Topic started by: Parax on April 01, 2014, 11:47:45 PM

Title: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 01, 2014, 11:47:45 PM
Following a discussion in the forums a little while ago, we've implemented some new rules regarding emulators. From now on, stats achieved on emulators are required to have proof. Since there's no function to upload proof directly to the site as of right now, instead we're requesting that you upload your proof somewhere and link to it through your stat comment. In accordance, I've created a thread where you can attach your proof files to a forum post (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5887.0), but if you'd like to upload elsewhere instead, that's fine.

There are a couple reasons for this change. First, it's been shown time and time again that emulators make it significantly easier to cheat. When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult. Second, emulators are not perfect and sometimes have accuracy issues that might be difficult to pick up on. With proof available, it gives all competitors an opportunity to verify for themselves that the stats they're competing against were accomplished fairly, without any unfair advantages caused by inaccurate emulation.

I also want to highlight one other somewhat recent rule. It's not new, but I think it's worth emphasizing. If you can't run the game at full speed, your stat is void. Don't submit it. If your emulator is lagging, at best, you will gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with. At worst, it can make the game behave differently than it would otherwise and give you an unfair advantage. Either way, it's not acceptable.

These rules are kind of a middle ground between leaving things the way they were before and banning emulators (or at least some emulators) entirely. Hopefully this will help make competition more fair to everyone.

If you notice any emulated stats that are in violation of the rules, let an admin know (me, Thorn, or Zeupar) and we'll handle it.

edit: I should add that stats already on the charts without proof will be grandfathered in, because I don't think anyone wants to dig through 10 years of stats and suspend all of the ones that don't have proof.

iOS and Android titles are exempt from this rule because the performance of the game can vary by a lot even when it's not being emulated.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Pokemonmaster888 on April 02, 2014, 12:12:57 AM
Just a quick question, are official emulators such the Wii, 3DS, and Wii U Virtual Console ok to use as they were before or will they require proof too? I don't use a lot of unofficial emulators, so I don't know of how they behave compared to official emulators. I've heard that official emulators usually are ok with how they play compared to the original version of the game, but there can be differences sometimes, which is why I am asking.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 12:14:29 AM
Official emulators are fine.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SB737 on April 02, 2014, 03:46:20 AM
The emulator proof thread states that a movie file must be attached, however not all emulators have that functionality, could this be cleared up please, so for example if fusion is used what happens then?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 11:29:48 AM
I agree with SonicBoom about clearing up what defines a movie file. Initially I'm guessing recorded inputs and recorded videos, but is there any quality demands like 10fps minimum or at least 256 colours, 96p etc. If a input file is done from a savestate on e.g. Gens11b then the savestate should also be provided or it doesn't really say much at all.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 11:50:40 AM
Yeah, obviously a savestate should be included. As for emulators without recording functionality, I suppose a regular old video would suffice in that case?

I'm far from an expert on emulators, just trying to put this together based on feedback I'm getting from you guys, so any input on better ways to go about doing this is welcome.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 11:59:49 AM
Well if I provided an animated GIF with 1 frame per second and 20*20 resolution after being compressed with xvid and jpeg, you wouldn't be able to tell much about the video anyways. If you want a video, some form of minimum requirements for it should be set. Perhaps list a few common formats or sites were external hosting is acceptable. Something like "MP4, MPEG, AVI, ..., are acceptable formats. The video must be at least 320*224p and 25 fps".

Also, is there a time limit for how long a video needs to have video proof available before it becomes trusted? Like lets say someone uploads a stat then closes their YT account 3 years later, would that void the stat since the video is no longer available?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 12:14:43 PM
fraps is by far the best way to record any emulator/pc game footage. its also a good tool to show you if ur fps drops... but could also contribute to a fps drop if your computer is really old. everyone should have a camera phone? use that if you have to.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 12:44:07 PM
Assuming everyone has a good computer or cellphone is capricious according to SDM
Not everyone here has the fastest computers or networking speeds in the world. I don't really care if it's 2099 [...] don't just go around saying we all have to upgrade our PC's and spend all that extra time between attempts just so we can conform to "getting with the times." That's about as capricious as it gets (I said that somewhere before).

In which case for a console like Genesis I would recommend recording an input file from Gens11b, since it's allowed, because it's the easiest to analyse from a technical perspective and also the least CPU-intensive rather than actually rendering a video file as you play. Not to mention it's more accurate than "vanilla" Gens and lets you spend minimal time between attempts.

Bizhawk works well for SMS/GG as well for the same reasons. Recording videos with these and submitting is about the most backwards thing you could do anyway but I'm not gonna go into that discussion here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 01:47:15 PM
you can record how ever with what ever. What this isnt is a witch hunt; we arent assuming people are trying to cheat, just the emulator doing things it shouldnt. Most everyone will be ok. now, if a stat ever comes into question and your video is say super shitty... it may warrent some explanation. the bulk of issues will come from emulators doing 3d sonic games or more complex sonic games, cpu heavy sonic games tracking tens, hundreth, of seconds. if ur running ann emulator of sonic just running to the right you should be fine.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 03:46:44 PM
Okay. SO I WILL go in here and question this entire rule. First off, how can a discussion between two people on TSC lead to... this? I mean think about it. A month or two ago we had a discussion about banning emulators, which was basically just a huge discussion with no agreement. NOW, some guy called flimsy bsdetector goes ahead, finds a small emulator difference in Sonic Colours (Emulator: Dolphin), and a rule towards all emulators is made?

I will quote Parax from the first thread that had a discussion about this: "Honestly though, how far should we go in requesting proof from people? Although we strive to keep the charts as legitimate as possible, ultimately there's so many different ways people can cheat that there's no way we could safeguard against all of them." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition, Date 20.01.2014]

People could just lie about not using emulators, first of all, and get away with it.
Either you force all people for proofs, none, or ban emulators that are known to have even the smallest differences in gameplay. There can be no middleground.

HOW can talking about a single emulator result in enforcing a rule on ALL emulators? I thought that was the whole reason the [Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition] Thread failed to get to an agreement in the first place?

Now, I am someone who rarely uses emulators. I will likely NOT be, under any circumstance, having to submit proof. Except for 1 or 2 stats where I have to use the japanese version of Sonic 1.

I just want to know how this rule came to be and when this was decided. Or if this is the start of the "overhaul of the entire site and all its policies." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition]

This is just so sudden i thought this was an april fools joke. It literally came out of almost nowhere, except for that one thread about Dolphin not emulating correctly. Instead if we just ban Dolphin, and have people look at other emulators and if they emulate correctly enough, there is no reason for that nonsense.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Kirbymon30 on April 02, 2014, 04:38:55 PM
I suppose I might as well put my incredibly lacking two cents in. It's not like I have anything to lose.

I have a sort of small argument that is more about me but other people might have this problem. The ideal form of proof would be a video, but what if recording makes the emulator run SLOWER? That's definitely happened to me on streaming, and if the issue here is that you can "gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with", how do you provide proof AND keep full speed in this case? Can't expect everyone to have perfect computers.

I don't have many other legitimate arguments, but I definitely do disagree with this. It takes away the freedom that made TSC what it is.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Gpro on April 02, 2014, 04:42:12 PM
I have mixed feelings about this rule. I mean, I definitely support making it harder to cheat, but not all emulators have the capability to TAS or have some kind of implementation that would void a stat's legitimacy.

If we were to go any way about this, require proof for specific emulators that can be TASed or something that like. To be fair, though, being able to tell who has what emulator is likely impossible, as not everyone will be willing to state their emulator or some people just won't say anything. In other words, while this is probably a better way, it'd still not be the right way to go about this.

I want to support these rules, but it's unfair and still difficult to track and properly implement :/
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Zorkiy on April 02, 2014, 04:51:47 PM
I support Don, Hyper and others who are against this (as I told multiple times in the chatroom lately). Just saying.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 05:23:23 PM
whoa whoa this only affects emulator users, thats it. if u dont have a computer you dont have and emulator. the only reason this is being tracked is cuz some ppl prefer to play on the pirate bay special; thats essentially what an emulated version of a game is. that will infact mess with the end time. to put this in a extreme perspective it would kinda be like allowing a slighty polished version of s1 gba to be permitted. if your computer cant handle recording your computer is honestly in no state to handle the emulators that are truley being targeted here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 05:31:37 PM
to put this in a extreme perspective it would kinda be like allowing a slighty polished version of s1 gba to be permitted.

It is. It's called S1-13.

Seriously though, the issue here is that emulators are EASY to use. Recording programs use a LOT MORE resources than Genesis emulators for example. This is not an issue with just dolphin, in fact, all emulators are affected. Even easy to use emulators that ANY computer can use, even windows XP old style versions.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Kirbymon30 on April 02, 2014, 05:35:14 PM
emulators that are truley being targeted here

Okay, this just makes this rule sound even more bullshit. If you're "truly" targeting certain emulators, why is this rule applied to ALL emulators?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 05:42:57 PM
again... you dont have to use the computer to record you can use a camera or w/e you got.

but its up to the community do yall want ppl to purposely or accidentally to gain and unfair advantage that you cant beat without yourself lowering ur own fps? the only thing this rule does is ensure your on a fair playing feild with ppl who arent playing the game properly (console)

edit: kirbymon honestly 2d sonic games we probably dont need this rule... I just see this making sonic heroes, colors, adventure, adventure 2, shadow, maybe some more im missing... I see this making the charts healthier its a good start
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 05:59:12 PM
Okay, one more thing:

We were talking about ALL emulators at first. Now it's just things on Dolphin? Clearly, all those would be emulated on dolphin, aside from SADX, SA2B and Heroes having a PC version, anyway.

True, I could use a camera. Chances are, if I don't have money for a good PC, why would I make a crappy video with a 20 dollar phone I got? Again, the issue here isn't that Emulators are not trustworthy. I still find it very... shifty that all information on the forums are "Hey I found this inaccurate time" on the LD leads to "let's enforce proof on all emulators". The process is not clear to me so I want clarification. You've been beating around the bush, but I can see where you're going. Please, answer honestly.

Do you want Dolphin to be banned?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Werey on April 02, 2014, 06:02:44 PM
Was there not a whole topic about revamping the proofing method not too long ago brought up when Paraxade became an admin, FF? I seem to remember there being a lot of drama about that exact subject.
As for emulators, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I HAVE to record, I will. If I have to use a specific emulator, I will. If my computer can't handle it? I won't use it. If using an emulator means I MUST provide proof, then I'll comply. If they're banned? I'll either not play those games or find another way to do it.

I don't understand why people would be willing to leave the site completely just because a little more effort is required in obtaining their stats. If people care about the legitimacy about the charts surely they'd go to any length to help keeping them legitimate?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 06:06:21 PM
Another question arose to me, where exactly does the line for emulator go? Does USB HDD's in a Wii count?

Otherwise, I feel like people are making it a little too big of a deal out of this. I certainly think that certain consoles are terrible for emulation for competitive use, TASing ones without any requirement for proof and otherwise inaccurate ones like Dreamcast for example. But lets look at the options here:

What consoles do we have Sonic games for?
SMS
GG
MD
Sega CD
32X
Saturn
PC
DC
NeoGeo
GBA
PSP
NDS
GC
Xbox
PS2
PS3
360
Wii
3DS
WiiU
Android
iOS


These don't have emulators and thus we can disregard them:
WiiU
3DS
360
PS3
Xbox
PC

These have emulators that can record input properly in real time, thus recording videos is a 10-second extra chore per stat (not attempt) without any inpact on performance:
SMS
GG
MD
Sega CD
32X
GBA
NDS(?)


What we are left with now is:
Saturn
DC
NeoGeo
PSP
GC
PS2
Android
iOS

Most would argue that Wii, GC, PS2, Saturn and DC don't have accurate enough emulators for competition. Thus only NeoGeo, PSP and Android/iOS ports remain, which means that the only games you'd have to go out of your way to record is Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Rivals 1 and 2, S1-13, S2-13, mobile version of SCD11 and mobile version of S4E1&2. Possibly DS games as well since I never tried recording inputs in that. And the quality isn't a big issue so using your cellphone as a last resort (like Romulo has done for years) is very viable.

The problem about lying what you're playing on remains though. It's an easy circumvent.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 06:08:19 PM
This is not about the legitimacy of the stats. Clearly, if you have a method to record your stat and want to prove your legitimacy, go ahead. The only problem I see here is that there are people that have legitimate problems recording on emulator, which would kill their competition. Also, why would we trust ANYONE at this point that they have gotten their stat fair and square if all they have to say "I got this on console."

Why even trust people? Either you enforce complete proof, which will make all people unhappy, or let it be. I do not think we accomplish anything except offending half of the competition that can't record anything because of their hardware.

Last thing, Werey, you're talking about "ME". Clearly, just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't mean others will not have an issue.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 06:20:37 PM
sorry I was assuming other topics where read. Im all for an all emulator ban, but thats stepping on to many toes. I understand how useful savestates and whatnot are. to kill the bulk of the problem you ban all sonic games that track .xx seconds from being emulated. that would be my solution. and sonic game that only tracks seconds... will more then likely be picked up on.

I would like to restate that this isnt a trust issue. I trust everyone here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 06:27:06 PM
So Parax, what is your take on this after reading all of this? Clearly this will not change unless Parax or another admin finds a better solution, a more accurate solution, we go back to the old or keep this. I just want to see the general idea behind this; flim_flam_bsdetector said that there were old threads? How old? Where? Can I even access them?

I want that everyone here being able to see the reasoning behind this decision, and if it is, at all, possible that we can still change this to a more accurate rule.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 06:33:50 PM
The only problem I see here is that there are people that have legitimate problems recording on emulator, which would kill their competition. Also, why would we trust ANYONE at this point that they have gotten their stat fair and square if all they have to say "I got this on console."

I find it hard to believe that recording your gameplay in any form could be a legitimate problem for anyone not living in Uganda or similar. Unless you have a PC from -94 and use DOS-emulators, there is not a single reason why you shouldn't be able to record your gameplay from an emulator with absolutely minimal effort.

If you own a mid-tier laptop from 2005 or thereabout, you could run most of the most efficient emulators at full speed, while also streaming in like 96p 15fps. You could then keep a timer as you play and take a note of the time you get a new stat. Then you export the stream video to YT and post it to TSC together with your timestamps, no trimming or highlighting required.

You could also record input videos with most of the emulators for the popular consoles, which provide the inconvenience of you having to press "record" and "stop recording" before and after a successful stat successfully without any inpact on performance like I said earlier.

Actually I'd like you to explain a situation where recording would be so frustrating you'd consider not competing at all yourself.

Also, if someone doesn't provide a video, it is implied s/he did it on console. A new BS tactic could be asking them to take a photograph of the game running while holding up a note with their username to prove they actually do own a NeoGeo Pocket and Sonic Pocket adventure, otherwise it would be a proven lie.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 06:44:19 PM
My reasoning here is that I have a low-tier Windows 7 PC. We're not talking just about using genesis emulators which I could record. We're talking about all emulators here. For the record: All of my sonic colours videos are in 30 FPS because my PC is too bad to record in 60.

I couldn't even record SA2B at 60 FPS (PC Version); I can stream it at 30 FPS to twitch and have next to no slowdowns. The thing is about processing power for everyone that uses emulators. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean you're gonna have the best PC available, or even a good PC at all; I'm just saying if we're gonna call out someone, make a rule about using non-TAS emulators. Make the rule of banning Dolphin and all 3D Sonic emulators that are inaccurate.

My problem here is that we had discussions about this but we always arrived at a stalemate and a small vendetta between you and SDM, but that's beside the point.

The case I want to make here is that Emulators are not the thing, it's the people. If you want to make BS calls, make BS calls. That's how this site has worked until now.

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 06:45:09 PM
lol a bser will bs and if they are good it cant be stopped... thats why we are still on a trust system even with this rule
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 06:54:15 PM
My reasoning here is that I have a low-tier Windows 7 PC. We're not talking just about using genesis emulators which I could record. We're talking about all emulators here. For the record: All of my sonic colours videos are in 30 FPS because my PC is too bad to record in 60.

I couldn't even record SA2B at 60 FPS (PC Version); I can stream it at 30 FPS to twitch and have next to no slowdowns. The thing is about processing power for everyone that uses emulators. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean you're gonna have the best PC available, or even a good PC at all; I'm just saying if we're gonna call out someone, make a rule about using non-TAS emulators. Make the rule of banning Dolphin and all 3D Sonic emulators that are inaccurate.

My problem here is that we had discussions about this but we always arrived at a stalemate and a small vendetta between you and SDM, but that's beside the point.

The case I want to make here is that Emulators are not the thing, it's the people. If you want to make BS calls, make BS calls. That's how this site has worked until now.

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

I don't understand that argument at all. Recording Colours (which runs at 30fps natively btw) has nothing to do with the argument if you're playing on console. And if not you should have a very powerful PC anyway.

The PC versions of games are allowed as far as I understand the rules revision (STEAM emulators for example are official emulators and obviously PC ports are allowed). And you have a low end computer and can still stream SA2B HD in 30fps!
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 07:02:51 PM
Again, you're going away from the actual issue here. I AM NOT suffering under this rule, others are. My problem with this is that the indication made by flim_flam, which is Dolphin should be banned, shouldn't result in "all emulators need proof". The process makes no sense. That is the only recent topic on this, other than the SDM vs TimpZ (TAS emulator bans) topics.

I am going to straight up say it again: Not everyone has a powerful enough computer to record emulators. If you are unable to read this or skim this TimpZ, I am going to assume you just have no interest talking about what I'm bringing up. If you have any BS call to make, make your case. If you don't trust someone, speak to people and do something.

And lastly, saying all other stats that have already been submitted dont need to be reinvestigated is pure poppycock and if you really want to make a change such as this, it should be something you should think about. This is borderline nepotism to say that all other stats are gonna stay the way they are just not to offend all the other competitors that are not going to suffer from this rule.

This is not ABOUT ME, this about saying all emulators are untrustworthy. Not all of them are untrustworthy, not all emulators emulate inaccurately enough to warrant a ban or forcing proof.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 02, 2014, 07:14:21 PM
I was asking for an example of a situation where you would consider not to compete because you could not record an accurate emulator since I can't think of any. You provided none.

The TAS emulator topic is irrelevant to this one.

Grandfathering old stats just makes sense. Generally if you pass a new law, you don't put people who disobeyed the law before it was enforced into jail.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 07:20:53 PM
The reason why I did not provide such an example because there is none. I would have no problems following the new rules myself, as I keep saying.

I do firmly believe that PCs that are worse than mine are going to have serious trouble with emulating and recording at the same time, however, so I am just speaking up. Not EVERYONE has a good enough PC for that, believe me.

My other issue here, at this moment, is that everything said and done about this feels like an indirect way to force everyone to abide by new rules, just because there have been small issues in the past where BS Calls have been taking ages to be finished, or even made.

This is not a natural solution, this is not a logical solution, there is no reason as to why I would accept this without any reasoning, aside from the threads I've already talked about.

And I DO think that these threads are relevant here, because that is ALL information on recent topics about this.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Zorkiy on April 02, 2014, 07:37:53 PM
Quote
If you own a mid-tier laptop from 2005 or thereabout, you could run most of the most efficient emulators at full speed, while also streaming in like 96p 15fps.
I can say that a 2008-2009 laptop could not handle emulating even 3D Blast on Gens at full speed w/ streaming.

Also, emulating and emulating+recording is a difference (as Don said already). For example, chances are there're configurations which are able to run Dolphin at full speed and are not able to record w/o a performance impact at the same time.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: CriticalCyd on April 02, 2014, 08:18:41 PM
Guess I'll post my 2 cents as well.

While I'm all for proofcalling and stuff when there's suspected BS, I feel like proofcalling someone just because they play on emulators feels a bit unfair. If the emulator was previously proven to be inaccurate, sure! If recording video or inputs doesn't really take a toll on the performance and takes but a few clicks to set up like TimpZ said, sure why not, I can get on board with that! But making it an across the board thing just completely disregarding any and all specifics, that just doesn't seem well thought out to me.

Which brings me to my main problem with this: why wasn't this discussed publicly in a big way beforehand? It seems to me that a big rule change like this would really benefit from lots of voices from many different perspectives. Get the people who run on emulators in there and the people who actively run the games it affects even if they don't run on emulator like myself. It's highly unlikely the admins are gonna know all specifics, nor do I expect them to, so let the community itself take care of that I'd say.

So yeah that's my thoughts on all this. And yeah I know emulating is piracy and all that, but let's be real here, money is tight for a lot of people and not everyone can or wants to spend a lot of income on their hobby, which is why emulation isn't just straight up banned to begin with. Sure the competition is serious and real and I love it, but at the end of the day it's still just videogames ;)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 08:58:28 PM
I just want to point out that I suggested this rule a good two months ago in the thread about banning all emulators and everyone in the thread seemed to agree with it (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5838.msg61190#msg61190), except HyperSonic. Just about everyone in there seemed to be insistent that things needed to change, and most of them seemed to be satisfied with this compromise... So yes, this -was- discussed publicly first, and did not just all of a sudden come about because of the stuff s&a posted about Dolphin.

Here is the thing I don't get. Why should this rule seriously impact anyone? It's not even about how fast your CPU is or etc, the fact about it is it only applies to emulators. If you really, really can't record your stats for whatever reason, you still have the option of playing on an official release. You can get a ton of the classic games on Steam, or Virtual Console, or Mega Collection, you can play the GameGear games on the 3DS VC or on SADX, you can get both of the Sonic Adventures on 360/ps3/pc, etc. There's a lot of options. You are perfectly allowed to get stats and not post proof for them if you're playing on an official release.

And of course, you're perfectly allowed to use emulators, too. There are just stricter proof standards now.

Those who are against it, taking this into consideration, why is this such a big problem to you?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 09:09:20 PM
I feel there are too many loopholes for this, and that some people do not have the time, money or effort to put into getting the hardware to actively avoid having to use emulators, or recording them.

Saying "emulators need proof" is nonsensical, because we've already had various threads where somebody posted a proof-video where we could not even see that he TASed. Proof like that can still be abused, you can still do things you shouldn't be able to and nobody would know any better.

As for the implementation: Who is going to look at all the proof? We've had some instances of bad proof, where we only found out a stat was invalid because some TSC individual randomly decided to look through proof. You would need to dedicate manpower towards just looking at proof, which at this point, you don't even look at.

Another thing is all you have to say is "I got it on console." and all would be well; no proof needed. Of course people are still going to suspect something, but they cannot actively call BS on somebody who maybe faked 1 or 2 stats. This is not going to solve anything, except making people show more effort for stats that could be believed to have been gotten legitimately.

Lastly, I feel it's too late to make a rule like that now that is only forced on ALL emulators. If anything we should look at certain emulators and evaluate whether or not they should be banned individually, or make a different rule entirely for individual Emulators.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 09:17:17 PM
I don't really understand why someone would lie and claim they got an emulated stat on console, instead of just submitting the stat without getting it at all, which is a loophole that TSC's system has had for a decade. It's not even an issue of faked proof there because they'd be doing it specifically to avoid posting proof.

This doesn't 100% prevent BS calls, no, but the idea is if someone's stats are called into question, there is a lot more material to work with to identify whether a stat is legitimate or not. It's one thing when we're just working with someone saying "I got X time" or posting a YouTube video or something, and it's another when we actually have an input file to analyze. Having more material available will make it more difficult to BS.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 09:22:28 PM
This doesn't 100% prevent BS calls, no, but the idea is if someone's stats are called into question, there is a lot more material to work with to identify whether a stat is legitimate or not.

You could say that about any supposedly stat gotten on a console. I truely believe that proof should be either enforced completely, or be on a voluntary basis. People that want to show their aptitude at sonic games will do so.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 09:23:10 PM
Stop talking about a legitimate bser. We know a legitimate bser can abuse anything. This tackles "ONLY" accidental bsing

real life example: you do a speed run and your time is say 1:12:75 its the best you can do, but you get on an emulator and do the EXACT same run, but because a frame skips here and a frame skips there your time is now 1:12:50 should it stand? If your answer is no, your for this new rule.

the rule really only enforces the current rule that a game emulated must not deviate from the official version of said game.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 09:25:10 PM
Again flim flam, the idea here would be testing out emulators. In your case you strongly are against Dolphin because there's 2 instances in which the emulation does not go correctly and gives you an edge. We're talking about full scale emulation here. ALL emulators. I feel like making a case against certain emulators would be a better start and would lead to a better solution.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 09:30:42 PM
I am open to better solutions. Emulators are not my area of expertise at all. I've been trying to implement these changes based on feedback from the community and discussions on the forum/IRC. If a lot of people think this is a poor solution, I'm open to better ones.

A lot of people thought there needed to be changes, and I agree to some extent. I've seen tons of instances recently where people post stats that were done on emulators while the game wasn't running at full speed. I've also seen a lot of instances recently where someone tried to pass off an emulated run as a TAS. Emulators are incredibly messy and overall shitty for competition, but enough people rely on them that I didn't think shutting them out entirely was the way to go.

So if we don't do this what should we do instead?

Also, apologies for springing this on everyone. Yeah, I posted this a good two months ago, but I realize I probably should have posted a thread warning that the change was going to be implemented in, say, a week. For the time being, I've removed the rule so we can have a discussion about it first.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 09:34:21 PM
no, your missing the point, if your computer hiccups even 1fps during a run and gives you a .05 second advantage your not gona know that, but ur still gona submit that time, even tho its essentially cheating; its against the rules. what this rule does is provide a chance for a hardcore competitor who is using a legitimate version of the game to have a fighting chance... what if your time is unbeatable just because of that hiccup? that's bs
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 09:37:55 PM
I think we should do the thing that ~Thorn~ said in his retirement/return post. Delegate work. Administrate. Get more people to work on the site, get more intel on the emulators, work out a solution with the competitors. Just overall more people to work on the problems that are evident, and get more information overall in order to work towards getting a satisfying solution. And building a team that can enforce a solution that is made by most, if not all, of the community.

I know that this might be too much, but i do not think that rapid decisions in a heated conversation with 2 people will warrant enough to change how the site works.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Gpro on April 02, 2014, 09:39:42 PM
When the people who are unable to cheat need to be questioned for legitimacy by the people running the program, or system, then entire thing is completely messed up.


We should probably add a function where you can choose whether you're submitting the stat on console or emulator, and list the amounts of emulators and stuff. MAYBE that would be an easier thing, and if certain emulators have problems and the people are becoming suspicious of said person, then the emulator proof rules should apply. It might be difficult to implement (I know nothing about site changing shizz), but I feel that this might be the best compromise, unlike my previous post, which I didn't think very much on
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 09:45:28 PM
It's like saying all speedrunners are super nerdy people with glasses fitting inside of one single category and play one single game.

???????

Quote
I know that this might be too much, but i do not think that rapid decisions in a heated conversation with 2 people will warrant enough to change how the site works.

Did you miss the part where I posted about this two months ago? This was not a rapid decision that came about from a heated conversation between 2 people. At all.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 09:50:14 PM
Maybe it was not a 'rapid' development, but you can't deny that there was some heavy things going on between the main people bringing up the argument. And Again, that was the reason why barely anyone took part in that discussion, as it feels rather... personal between those two guys.

Alas, as previously stated, that was not what I intended to be taken into consideration. I was trying to emphasize the fact that TSC should be trying to find a solution together. Or at least, with more people rationally talking about it as a team rather than as individuals.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 09:55:06 PM
Quote
I know that this might be too much, but i do not think that rapid decisions in a heated conversation with 2 people will warrant enough to change how the site works.

Did you miss the part where I posted about this two months ago? This was not a rapid decision that came about from a heated conversation between 2 people. At all.
[/quote]

most everyone against this its not reading/ understanding... flying fox is mad cuz some people don't have computers...

parax I think you did a great job, and you know I hate to say that. Of course there will be tweaks made, like I think 2d sonics for the time being should be exempt. thats what most people are blindingly angry about. and while every emulator suffers from this, 2d sonics will be more resistant to the affects, by only tracking seconds. and remember angry people are the loudest. ;)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 10:00:01 PM
Your arguments are just towards 3D sonics, again. I firmly believe you want Dolphin to be removed entirely from the emulation, because it has potential to have greater inaccuracies than other competetive emulators, due to having a big amount of 3D games on the Wii/GCN platform.

Just say it directly, even though you are banned from TSC and will probably never compete here again, I do believe that as a banned member you probably now more about BSing than I do!
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 02, 2014, 10:06:51 PM
Don, please don't make personal accusations like that. It is irrelevant what you think he actually wants when that's not what he's arguing for. Further, he's banned from the forums, not from competition, and I've been willing to overlook his bandodging for the time being because he's actually had some valid points to make and been posting pretty reasonable stuff. Turning this discussion into little personal needles and accusations is not productive.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 02, 2014, 10:10:08 PM
Parax, he's been attacking people himself, but I'm going to stop talking about this now.

So all in all, we have 4 opinions: Yes to the rule, No to the rule, enforce 3D emulators, or wait until we can get a proper solution done.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 02, 2014, 10:23:42 PM
I'd like to know where the hell all you kids were when we were all actually DISCUSSING this.

If you cared that much, you would have spoken at the time it was relevant -- when this was actually up for debate.

And while the thread at the surface looks primarily like me bitching, we actually got a lot accomplished (And TimpZ and I kind of deserve the credit for bringing those involved in the thread to that consensus, despite how annoying I've sounded as of late.)

You folks would do well to reread that thread, because a lot of what you all are trying to bring up has already been addressed by myself or TimpZ, and we worked very hard to bring several opposing opinions together on the matter. It's not exactly fair for you all to stampede in, not knowing much of what was discussed, and sit idle only until we take action. You're committing the same sins I have before I left this place.

EDIT: On an off-topic remark, S&A being civil? I think Hell froze over.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 10:34:02 PM
sdm are you for or against emulation for competition? I never got the chance to read that. and I personally probably wouldn't of cared at the time. but after running into this problem multiple times personally, and having a great understanding of what potientaily is happening on a large scale is scary to me. dont get me wrong I still am who I am, I also understand the zero tolerance against me. but what we can all agree on is the love of competition and I think this is important
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: DarkPolarNight on April 02, 2014, 10:41:29 PM
Here are my thoughts:

I don’t know much about emulators, but I do know that there is a big difference in the range of emulators-as in some are basic some have very complex features.

Therefore, I strongly disagree that the ruling should be applicable for “all” emulators.

Take the games that have basic emulators. Sonic 1+2 can be done on Fusion, Advances on the Visual Boy Advance emulators. Someone new comes to the sight-maybe doesn’t want to take competition seriously and would be rather happy to achieve say yellow times…….would they really want to make the effort and provide video proof to every stat they do? I just think that it would discourage competition for those that play on an emulator that play more for fun- (as in not aim for records, or solid red stats).

Working out which emulators cause problems and implementing some kind of changes, with the identified emulators, may be a way forwards? (Not knowing enough about this, I don’t know how/who/when could identify these emulators and/or whether this is too complex to do).

Also, TSC is over 10yrs old. What is different now that additional rules need to be put in place compared to a 2, 5 or 10 years ago?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 02, 2014, 10:43:22 PM
Honestly, S&A, life is short. I'm done ignoring you. I don't know if the rest of TSC feels the same way or not but if I had the power I would have unbanned your main account already.

I deliberately left my exact stance on emulation out of the thread, expressing only logical deductions based on what others had posted. (Though my own opinions are rather obvious, I'd like to allow as much emulation as is possible, as long as it's accurate)

To sum it all up, we narrowed it down to 4 choices, and the middle ground in the OP is what everyone all agreed on, save for one person.

To make it more explicit, not much is really changing here. We simply only want an emulator-produced video file whenever you're using emulators and it's possible to do so. We're not asking for much here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 02, 2014, 11:36:30 PM
I would only kinda disagree with, that you would have to acknowledge not only would an emulator have to be 100% to be accurate (if that's even possible) but the computer its being used on would have to be 100% (no random hiccups)

I like the point dark polar brought up about casuals because most of use start out as casuals here I just don't know how many of us start out as casuals on emulators, that should be looked into.

The beauty I see with this, is if one day joe speed runner wakes up and says "hey I want to be the record holder on so&so chart" and goes all in on it. this will ensure that's chart remains beatable by keeping an archived history of the emulated run, making sure an illegitimate max wasn't created by a computer hiccup. (legit bser and max record aside)

an aside point... why wouldn't you want to show off your speed runs?

that's it for me tonight... think this is a good thing, but hey
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: flying fox on April 03, 2014, 06:34:10 AM
most everyone against this its not reading/ understanding... flying fox is mad cuz some people don't have computers...

I don't know where you got the idea that I was mad. However, looking back at my post I realised that it wasn't well thought out since if you don't have a computer, you can't use emulators anyway >_> At the time I posted that a lot of real life stuff was happening at the time and I got very distracted, I shouldn't have posted so just disregard what I said earlier. Sorry about that :/
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Strong Bad on April 03, 2014, 07:05:36 AM
So far this has been the best April Fools I've seen. Good work.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Auriman1 on April 03, 2014, 11:17:54 AM
Back when I was a more active competitor, I did most of my competition on morning commutes. In addition to my Nintendo DS and Gameboy Advance, I would play some other games using emulators on my PSP. None of those emulators had any video recording capabilities. If such a rule existed at the time, I probably would've opted to just never compete at all, because it wouldn't have been practical for my time or resources.

It also seems odd to require proof all of the time for one form of playing the game, but not the other. In my personal opinion, all that does is actively encourage people to lie and say they weren't using an emulator to achieve their stats, especially if they legitimately don't have a good way of recording during their attempts on a regular basis, but still want to compete. In comparison, if emulators aren't a weird inconsistent taboo regarding rulings, if something doesn't seem right and people are playing fair, they can show what they did and specify what they used, and if there was some weird emulation flaw, it can be addressed in some way.

If "always submit video evidence" needs to become an official rule, so be it. But if it does, it should be all across the board, consoles and PC's included. However, there's no doubt in my mind that would cut the active competitors down significantly, since that sort of evidence requires special setups in many cases, and lots of less enthusiastic competitors will decide it isn't worth the hassle. That comes with the territory of absolute evidence.

Even if this topic was just an elaborate April Fool's prank or an attempt to get more people talking and bring more opinions out of the woodwork, that's just my two cents regarding such a rule. I didn't bother commenting on the other topic since I found it impossible to take what seemed to be one, maybe two people's whining about emulators seriously. Maybe there was more active discussion happening in the IRC, but if there was I wouldn't know, as I don't use IRC.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 11:57:56 AM
parax has said they are open to ideas to make the rule better, and so far alot of the arguements are just straw men arguements wanting to completely strip the rule, while at the same time admitting the rule will have little to no effect to them.

having time sleeping on it I wanted to make a suggestion that we only make video mandatory when a WR is achieved? ( or maybe top 3 or top 5)

I think this would protect the casuals while also protecting the hardcore competitors, and also making the window of people it will actually affect drastically smaller?

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: InferSaime on April 03, 2014, 12:06:04 PM
having time sleeping on it I wanted to make a suggestion that we only make video mandatory when a WR is achieved? ( or maybe top 3 or top 5)

I think this would protect the casuals while also protecting the hardcore competitors, and also making the window of people it will actually affect drastically smaller?

Now this in my opinion is a really good idea, but I would make it if a red stat is achieved. As that would mean it's more accurate I guess, I mean if you go by top 5 for example then it wouldn't be fair if you get like 5th out of 20(here you beat like 75% of the players) you do need to provide proof while if you get 6th out of 100(here you beat like 94% of the players) you don't. While with red stats it's immediatly the top 20%
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 03, 2014, 12:19:56 PM
Back when I was a more active competitor, I did most of my competition on morning commutes. In addition to my Nintendo DS and Gameboy Advance, I would play some other games using emulators on my PSP.

I'm not very familiar with the PSP one in particular but aren't homebrew console emulators generally really laggy and not well-optimized? In that case being discouraged from using it actually seems like a good thing.

Quote
having time sleeping on it I wanted to make a suggestion that we only make video mandatory when a WR is achieved? ( or maybe top 3 or top 5)

This seems like a decent compromise if enough people are on board with it. (oh the irony, having to compromise on a compromise)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: sonikkusama on April 03, 2014, 12:30:53 PM
i want to say first and foremost that this rule doesn't effect me, and in all honesty i don't care that much. i also haven't really read this thread, so if my opinions have already been stated or shut down i apologize in advance for beating a dead horse. i'm mainly posting here because last night my entire stream was flooded with this conversation for the entire night and i agreed to share my opinion on it. i should also add i'm not really a competitor, i only have stats for a few games and they're not good. i'm mainly on this site for the sake of talking to people.

the one thing i took away from what i've heard about this emulator requiring proof/banning/whatever is that i feel it ultimately doesn't even solve the problem that it's trying to solve and is tackling the wrong issue. i believe people are trying to solve the issue of people bullshitting stats, which i understand on a competetive site completely and think it should be adressed. requiring proof from emulators doesn't solve that issue, bullshitters will just say that they're using console and get around the rule. as far as banning emulators, that would just hurt casual players that aren't quite ready to make the investment in a console or game or whatever. i say this as a casual player who owns every sonic game and every console to play them on (barring a 32x), but i can see why someone who does it casually wouldn't want to spend the money.

if you want to stop bullshit i think the only real way to do it is to absolutely require proof for world record stats. if someone is playing a game at such an intense level and are so passionate that they are able to get world records for a game, it's highly unlikely that this person is incapable of spending a little bit of money to support that hobby and supply some proof. seriously, who would actually want a world record that they can't show off to other people. again, this comes from a casual player who has every means necessary to prove any stat i would ever have, so again, someone hardcore should be more than ready to. this isn't 2002 or something, for around 200 dollars you could easily provide yourself with everything you need to get your hands on what is needed to record your specific game from console or upgrade your computer just enough to allow you to record from an emulator. if you have that hard of a time getting a bit of money set aside for your hobby that you are that passionate about, you should consider fixing that problem before spending more time trying to get world records.

anyway, that's all i really have to say on this topic, and there's no sense rustling jimmies if you're not even going to solve the right issue, so keep that in mind and good luck finding a solution.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 03, 2014, 12:42:13 PM
Well what if you're not expecting to get a top percentile stat? You wouldn't record, couldn't submit it and get frustrated that you'd have to do it again.

Using a PSP emulator for serious competition sound like the least relevant thing I've heard all day. We have 297 players for Sonic 1, how many of them do you think used a PSP emulator to achieve their stats? You can always think of unrealistic examples, like someone playing on a 3DS with a pirate DS card with a Genesis emulator playing Sonic 1, but it's not relevant to take into account for the other 99% of players, most of whom care about legitimacy and accuracy.

The fact of the matter remains that recording your stats for all but the 3D Sonic's (of which Colours, Unwiished, Black Knight, Secret Rings, Riders ZG and Shadow are the only ones that are not unemulatable right now and not ported to PC) is trivial and not time consuming. Someone mentioned they couldn't stream with their 2008 laptop or something, but if I can record from emulators with a low-tier laptop from 2004, anyone can and I've already posted about at least 3 methods to do so in this thread.

The reason you shouldn't require videos for consoles is because it requires lots of investments and time. Or can anyone tell me how to plug in a Gamegear to my PC? This is not the case for emulators and to me it makes nothing but sense.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 03, 2014, 12:50:03 PM
I think your Logic is faulty, TimpZ. If you know you're working towards getting a top percentage stat in a game, you know how good you are. Nobody whose skill is equivalent of getting a really good (maybe even record stat) on an emulator will be surprised if they actually get it. If you know you're going to compete seriously rather than casually, it will not be an issue for you to know that you should record.

You of all people know that the amount of effort that goes towards learning a game will eventually pay off, and if you don't stop until you get a record, you should very much expect getting it. If you look at just the 2D Sonics, a lot of the records are owned by a multitude of people, so you won't get a good time or record if you don't expect it.

I do approve of Aurimans idea, if someone wants to play casually, let them!
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 03, 2014, 01:03:17 PM
While I agree having a cutoff at, lets say top 30% or similar, could be a valid compromise, you just invalidated my whole post by me pointing out an example which has happened to me many times; getting a better time than I was expecting.

And no I disagree. If you put the cutoff at top 10% people are gonna push it until they're in the range for the apparent inconvenience of recording and inevitably get stats they can't submit. The same is true until you either lower the percentage requirement to be so low that it doesn't make sense to have it anymore or raise it until only the very top few stats require it. I feel like that defeats the purpouse.

Having it at a point like 30isch% could mean that people that casually play through the games don't have to record, but people that consciously try to go fast do. But again this defeats the purpouse of having a leaderboard to me, because why would you submit a stat you didn't put effort in? Of course people might have their reasons but if we're gonna do a cutoff, then it should be for any sensibly fast times and not just the record time or whatever IMO.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 01:51:18 PM
the only mistake here is parax mentioned that it will crack down on cheaters. it wont, if u purposely submit a video with obvious tas that's stupid, no one will do that im tired of harping on how this is not intended for legitimate bsers. I want to tear my hair out.

imo its a lot better the have a set number cut off at top 3 or 5. I feel %'s will just confuse. and the main goal of thia rule is to protect the hardcore competitor, period. this suggestion tackles potential casuals period.

the point about a new game comes out so you cant submit cuz theres only 3 players should never ever be a problem
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 03, 2014, 02:13:08 PM
"the main goal of thia rule is to protect the hardcore competitor"

I don't think that is the case, but you and I have no right to say anything about "hardcore competitors". We really should talk about a case-by-case basis for emulators, rather than talking about all of them at once, or just disregard this rule as a whole. As far as I know, TSC has been able to track down most if not all of the BSers, given enough time, so I don't think a rule like this is necessary.

It will only inconvenience people more, the half-casual competition will COMPLETELY stop; I've talked to some undead TSCers that said they will probably not come back if this rule stays. And to bring up one of my earlier points, the proof that will be gotten by the rest of the competition will be 95% useless, because not everyone is going to BS and there is no one that is even willing to look at proof nowadays. I mean, a few months ago when Thorn wanted to leave, nobody even cared about COMPETITION, and the only thing that was talked about was bullshitting.



Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 03, 2014, 02:19:42 PM
"Everyone is going to stop competing if x change is implemented" seems to get brought up every single time a rule change is suggested. I have yet to see any evidence.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 03, 2014, 02:26:30 PM
Obviously such evidence will only be brought once the rule is there, that's why people are trying to prevent it. This is really the first rule change that I'm trying to stop, so I don't know how it usually goes. I do not want to call people out on this, because this is a decision they have made for themselves.

I for one would probably stop competing here, just because the rule is not part of my personal mentality. I can assure you I wouldn't have tried to play Sonic 1 or Sonic Advance if I would've had to record every single stat i've made, and in general, I just find it unfair that emulator is instantly chained towards BSing. The Mentality of the whole site will indubitably change, if we accept a rule such as the one proposed in this thread.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 02:30:32 PM
man... idk what to tell you, I keep telling you this isnt about bsers and its blowing right over your head

 if the suggestion is also implemented this this only affects hardcore competitors that ONLY use emulators... cant see a mass tsc exit from that.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Strong Bad on April 03, 2014, 03:45:44 PM
"Everyone is going to stop competing if x change is implemented" seems to get brought up every single time a rule change is suggested. I have yet to see any evidence.
People that care enough about competition and do so legitimately will compete regardless. Not that I'm relevant anymore, but passion tends to give people the motivation to provide proof and such. Other communities have no problem with this. If competition levels actually decrease because of rules like this, you've most likely weeded out a few cheaters.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 03, 2014, 07:26:07 PM
Overall there will be more negative effects than good?

Please let me see the data you base this statement on.

I don't mean to be rude, but any prediction of the future is pure conjecture. This is not a problem I'm familiar with in any other form of game-competition. It seems to me like everyone that are arguing against have the simplisitic argument of "less people will compete".

Well, what if the goal is not to have as many people compete as possible, but rather have as accurate leaderboards as possible? The Ocarina of time leaderboards of ZSR doesn't seem to have any problems with competition and all of those stats have to go through a verification process of some sort as far as I know.

Paraxade's argument of "I've yet to see any evidence" still stands. What Hyper is even arguing about in his last post I'm confused about since he seems to argue that number of competitors is more important than the legitimacy in the actual stats.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 08:09:05 PM
Hypersonic, I want to show you a real life example that impacts you and actually everyone else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQn-D7WsXxc

and before you blast that this is just one level, let me explain. Watching the fps the whole video I dropped one frame at the beginning 2 more frames during the fight and dropped 2 frames at the same time during the last hit before unlimited colors (there was like a 3 frame drop on 3 phase cube but that's actually more in line of what actually happens on console) my time was 2:28:16 (which took me like 5 mins compared to console but lets keep it simple here.) I tied dss the only reason I didn't beat you was because I hit the wrong button on the last hit.

now without explaining all this and having an fps counter it looks like a normal run. compare it with the console. should I be able to submit this time? no, because I basically cheated. but I didn't do anything funny, my computer just snagged up. (like I've stated before I have a very high end computer)

Now lets say you don't have an fps counter, this run at first glance looks normal. WHAT THIS RULE DOES is still permits you to submit that run, assuming you have good intentions in mind. later down the road someone can pull up that run that is playing the game legitimately on a console and call you out if that time is "absolutely" not possible on a console.

im not in charge but im assuming you wont get banned, because this rule assumes you have good intentions, but the emulator has messed up.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Auriman1 on April 03, 2014, 08:52:36 PM
Quote from: TimpZ
The reason you shouldn't require videos for consoles is because it requires lots of investments and time.

Quote from: TimpZ
It seems to me like everyone that are arguing against have the simplisitic argument of "less people will compete".

Well, what if the goal is not to have as many people compete as possible, but rather have as accurate leaderboards as possible? The Ocarina of time leaderboards of ZSR doesn't seem to have any problems with competition and all of those stats have to go through a verification process of some sort as far as I know.

What bothers me more than anything about these proposed rules is how logic seems to be warped for consoles, in comparison to emulators. This feels like an all-or-nothing rule, if it goes into effect in any caliber. Targeting only emulators is what strikes me as silly about the whole thing.

Even in the proposed defense of why the rule can work, things like the Ocarina of Time leaderboards, those people are recording their consoles, it's part of their competing process. If people are serious about increasing the accuracy and integrity of stats, it doesn't make any sense to treat consoles differently, just because "it's inconvenient".

People using emulators will be inconvenienced. I realize my PSP example is a little dated, but so am I. If you want a more recent, relevant example, most emulators available on Android and iOS devices lack recording abilities, at least last time I checked, and those are easily obtained by anyone.

It's worth noting that consoles aren't immune to age or imperfection, either, and can perform differently, especially if someone is dissecting things down to their individual frames. As my PS3 has gotten older, I've needed to occasionally defragment its hard drive to cut back on lag, and the same applies to PC's. Some old NES consoles I've come across have clearly seen some use, and everything was moving in slow motion, in relation to a "healthy" NES.

I think requiring video evidence of top stats is the most reasonable compromise if this rule needs to go into effect, but I do think that should also be extended to include consoles.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Luxray on April 03, 2014, 08:57:08 PM
Two options to play a game:

Play on Console. If BS is called, provide pictures of the save file times (if applicable/newer games) or strat (older consoles/before times saved), like how we've always done.

Play on (Unofficial) Emulator & Record your input file at the very least. If BS is called, proof exists to quash said BS call before it happens.

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?

How does recording an input file affect your emulation? It's minimal strain as far as i know, and should not be a problem, especially considering we've had many special events/challenges on the site that required input files.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 09:39:32 PM

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?


I wont go as far to say im suspicious but it really is actually making me kinda nervous the attacks against this; with all the misinformation that is being spewed out about this im still optimistic that most people are for this if they knew the exact facts. it seems like a common sense solution. you brought up TASer though, which would be a legit bser. which cannot be stopped without enacting rules that REALLY would make everyone mad. we are still on the honor system
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Auriman1 on April 03, 2014, 10:01:01 PM
Quote from: Luxray
Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?
Personally, I don't have much time to compete outside of the house these days and I could easily provide input files for the systems it applies for if I got back into competing, but I still feel it's necessary to play devil's advocate, since I can see it would've inconvenienced younger me. By extension, it might discourage newcomers.

Quote from: Flim_flam_bsdetector
we are still on the honor system
And that's what strikes me as the problem. If the rules aren't at least consistent across devices and there are already exceptions and excuses for those exceptions, then what is really being gained?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 10:13:19 PM
the rules are consistant across devices... but an emulator is an illegitimate device. and more actions are being taken against them to synchronize fairness.

and you are welcome to play devils advocate. because atm on the flip side emulator user has the advantage over a console so how would you fix it? sugesstions on making the rule better without stripping its core are very welcome

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Luxray on April 03, 2014, 10:32:26 PM

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?


I wont go as far to say im suspicious but it really is actually making me kinda nervous the attacks against this; with all the misinformation that is being spewed out about this im still optimistic that most people are for this if they knew the exact facts. it seems like a common sense solution. you brought up TASer though, which would be a legit bser. which cannot be stopped without enacting rules that REALLY would make everyone mad. we are still on the honor system

I brought up TASing because it's still a relevant point. Especially when some people still feel off about Chaos_Control's S1 Rings. People need to read things thoroughly when a rule change comes up because many misunderstandings can occur. I'm not entirely sure why people are even up in arms about it all. I still haven't read an excuse. Most of Don's points are all to do with video/non-input captures, and as such are a little moot because of this:

When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult.




The only reasonable thing to discuss is this:

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

At which point if people are trying to stop it because of that you have 2 choices:




And since i'm kinda going on a reading frenzy now, i'm going to address a misconception:

the one thing i took away from what i've heard about this emulator requiring proof/banning/whatever is that i feel it ultimately doesn't even solve the problem that it's trying to solve and is tackling the wrong issue. i believe people are trying to solve the issue of people bullshitting stats, which i understand on a competetive site completely and think it should be adressed. requiring proof from emulators doesn't solve that issue, bullshitters will just say that they're using console and get around the rule.

What's that? You used a console? Okay, please show us a screenshot of the saved stat on the game.

Limiting what ranks people should be able to submit stats is also extremely stupid. You can't make this a grey area. Proof or no proof. People who want to avoid giving proof will slow down to be under the threshold and be sub par, which isn't being competitive, it's being stupid and undermining the point of us being a goddamn competition site.

I for one would probably stop competing here, just because the rule is not part of my personal mentality.

If it's not affecting you, like you said, but you are physically/mentally disturbed by it, you can leave and make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

Ok, show me a change that has had drastic, sitewide effects then.

What makes you think this is drastic? This is something that needed to be done and was put off for so long that people have become rooted into a bad system and don't want it to change. Competition evolves and so does technology. If we want to maintain integrity, we have to keep up to date and stamp out issues involving emulators being inconsistent and incorrect in replicating their console (and official) counterparts.

What bothers me more than anything about these proposed rules is how logic seems to be warped for consoles, in comparison to emulators. This feels like an all-or-nothing rule, if it goes into effect in any caliber. Targeting only emulators is what strikes me as silly about the whole thing.

We really should be enforcing proof for all stats. But one step at a time seems to be what's happening here. It'll come in time i hope.

By extension, (requiring proof for emulator play) might discourage newcomers.

Newcomers are more likely to be playing on console if anything.



I honestly think that all this hubbub is over nothing and caused by a minority of players. We've been the longest standing site that hasn't required proof for quite some time, and that honestly needs to change, especially when people are going to choosing emulating over the actual console. When you look down to it, emulators are meant to be a way for people to compete while not having access to the game (example: i don't own a Mega Drive/Genesis, so i use emulator to play the original generation of games). Asking for proof for all these means that we can disallow runs and emulators that aren't running like the original console/game, just like our rules were requiring so previously
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 10:41:00 PM
you said a lot there that I didnt dare say but really does need to be said. this would be a good check point/ tag/ sticky if possible in the discussion.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Auriman1 on April 03, 2014, 10:44:35 PM
I still stand by requiring videos for consoles as well as emulators would be the most thorough and complete way to implement this rule, but I'll admit it is a lot easier for people to use an input recording function of a PC emulator than it is to capture a video signal.

If anything, maybe the rule is at least a step in the right direction. Maybe at the very least it will get people comfortable with the idea of including some form of file alongside their submissions, and provide incentive to get a file attachment system in place for submissions.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 03, 2014, 10:53:18 PM
I actually agree that we should require proof for consoles as well, not just emulators, but when I've brought up the subject before it tends to get shot down by the same people who are arguing against the emulator rule. I seriously think we need more verification of stats if we want to be taken seriously as a competitive platform. Maybe we don't, and hey, maybe that's fine. Maybe that's just not what TSC is. I don't know anymore.

In any case, I think proof on emulators is more important than proof on consoles, because there are a lot more variables on an emulator than there are on console. Standardized hardware is actually important here because it guarantees a level playing field. For instance, the Unlimited Colors thing s&a is talking about would not be an issue if it happened on console, and happened consistently at the same time for everyone. But it doesn't. I think, considering things like this are possible, having a layer of verification where people are able to go look at the video and say "hey, that's not supposed to happen" is a good idea. If Imazor had chosen not to post a video, s&a would have no idea that he had a .20-second advantage (or something like that), and that can absolutely make a difference when a record is close to optimized.

Given that it's likely only going to affect stats in small ways, would people be satisfied if the rule was only required for stats in the top 5? Sorry if you suddenly get a top 5 stat when you aren't expecting it while playing on an emulator on your GameBoy Color, but that does not seem like a common enough situation to really be a factor. At higher levels of gameplay I think for the most part you will know when you're on track for a good stat.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 03, 2014, 11:24:53 PM
well.. in the perfect world we would like to know all stats are perfectly legit. tsc is of course about the honor system, that will never change :) . thats why I like this rule it doesnt just protect hardcore legit console players it really also protects ppl competing on tsc that have no intention to cheat but their emulator may have done something illegal and can potentially be sorted out by the community. I've said I trust everyone here and I do, without mentioning names we've even had mods cave to the pressure of tsc's moral and admit to wrong doings. so I of course support this... I wish some of mhc would speak up about this too .. >_>
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Pokemonmaster888 on April 03, 2014, 11:43:56 PM
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Luxray on April 04, 2014, 12:25:13 AM
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.

Did you even read the fucking thread? This is supposed to be about requiring proof for emulators. I brought up console proof because that the direction this site should be headed. Now is not the time to discuss is as it. It's also not for every bloody stat, just the ones obtained on emulators. Not everyone uses emulators for all games and stats.

Further the proof system at TG wasn't the problem. It was the airheaded, arbitrary dissection of records/categories; pretty much an issue Cosmo addressed when trying to brainstorm ideas for SRL leaderboards. It caused people to avoid it because they were banning things that detracted from the core of speedrunning: Going fast with nothing but the controller. You're also assuming that this website has a dedicated team to develop. We have one 'developer' or the site's source code and he seems to be apathetic in updating the site. Furthermore the only people interested in working on the site's code have no coding knowledge.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Pokemonmaster888 on April 04, 2014, 12:36:09 AM
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.

Did you even read the fucking thread? This is supposed to be about requiring proof for emulators. I brought up console proof because that the direction this site should be headed. Now is not the time to discuss is as it. It's also not for every bloody stat, just the ones obtained on emulators. Not everyone uses emulators for all games and stats.

Further the proof system at TG wasn't the problem. It was the airheaded, arbitrary dissection of records/categories; pretty much an issue Cosmo addressed when trying to brainstorm ideas for SRL leaderboards. It caused people to avoid it because they were banning things that detracted from the core of speedrunning: Going fast with nothing but the controller. You're also assuming that this website has a dedicated team to develop. We have one 'developer' or the site's source code and he seems to be apathetic in updating the site. Furthermore the only people interested in working on the site's code have no coding knowledge.

That's not a nice attitude to take. If you don't want to discuss console proof now than why did you bring it up in the first place? The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems. I'm not assuming this website has a dedicated team to develop at all, I said that some features should be integrated. If GerbilSoft can't/doesn't want to do it, than perhaps the site should find more help to get the site advanced more and continue the site's progress. If you need help, then ask people outside of the site if they are interested in developing. How else will the site grow? The discussion was about emulators and I answered that question, and yes, I did read every post that was made before I posted.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Luxray on April 04, 2014, 12:57:37 AM
If you don't want to discuss console proof now than why did you bring it up in the first place?

I barely put it on the floor for discussion. I acknowledged the point and said it's something we should do at a later date. Nothing more to add to it.

The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company.

You directly related it, which is the step above implying. If you were making two unrelated statements, you should learn to write/type properly; Two different points shouldn't be in the same sentence unless you are trying to say that they are related.

I'm not assuming this website has a dedicated team to develop at all, I said that some features should be integrated. If GerbilSoft can't/doesn't want to do it, than perhaps the site should find more help to get the site advanced more and continue the site's progress. If you need help, then ask people outside of the site if they are interested in developing. How else will the site grow?

Well i seemed to have found out a moment ago that GS is okay with redesigning TSC. Though obviously 1 person can't design it all on their own without being able to dedicate incredible amounts of time towards it. If the administrators want someone to help design a new site, they will seek it out. Otherwise their apathy towards obtaining said help will mean that this site will not change much at all. So you are correct on this point.

The discussion was about emulators and I answered that question, and yes, I did read every post that was made before I posted.

This thread should not have blown out beyond what it was. All people needed was a clarification on what constitutes as a movie file, which is either an input file (w/ save state if it's not from boot) or a video capture that can show frame rates/lag. That's it. All this unecassary discussion was because of one person not realising this discussion happened months ago. 2 people against it, one of them thinking this rule change is out of the blue (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5888.msg61502#msg61502). (The other whose reasons I don't know, but that's because i haven't read that other clusterfuck of a thread in depth. I suppose he has his own valid reasons *shrug*)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Pokemonmaster888 on April 04, 2014, 01:14:47 AM

The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company.

You directly related it, which is the step above implying. If you were making two unrelated statements, you should learn to write/type properly; Two different points shouldn't be in the same sentence unless you are trying to say that they are related.

Yes, I know how to type properly. I made a mistake, I should have been clearer in that post. I'd rather not be jabbed at when parts of your past posts in numerous topics were ambiguous/had a decent amount of incorrect grammar and spelling, enough that I was not too sure what you were trying to say. I was merely trying to help get some ideas spread around for TSC, and try to help make the site better.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 04, 2014, 01:18:05 AM
Let's try not to be condescending towards each other please, I would rather this thread stayed productive
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 04, 2014, 07:22:28 AM
Okay I have re-thought about this, and I personally would approve of either of these:

1) Console and Emulator proof are a must for all stats. (if we go the competetive route)

2) No proofs are needed, but are welcome for both.

3) Ban Emulators as a whole. (compromise between 1) and 2).

The reason why I am for this is because it will allow people to have a level playing field; either everyone has to submit proof or use normal consoles, or use both emulators or consoles without having to be inconvenienced by relentless proof submissions.

I just don't think that a half-assed rule that will stop casual competition ANYWAY should be taken into account, simply because it is not a good solution. As I've stated before, I am mostly playing on console myself, so I think if what you really want is serious competition, Emulators shouldn't be allowed.

In case that would happen, we should probably take charts into account that are mostly emulated (like sonic pocket adventure) and look whether or not it's worth keeping them around.

EDIT: Yes, I mean all emulators. Including BlueStacks, as well as emulators that emulate the Neo Geo Pocket colour.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 04, 2014, 08:31:02 AM
Not quite sure why you think this rule wil stop casuals, but an out right emulator ban wont?

but hey you mentioned emulator ban... sure lets do it? but this rule IS the compromise why would you not want to try a new rule so we can still preserve emulators. because an out right ban isnt a compromise, its zero tolerance.

I believe the issue your having is being able to distinguish that an emulator IS an illegitimate gaming device.

people arent changing out their cpu, ram, graphics cards in their sega Genesis so we dont have accuracy issues there.

now if this was about eliminating all bsers period your points would be valid... but thats simply not what this is
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 04, 2014, 09:01:14 AM
My reasoning is this: This site's competition is on a trust system.

Making emulator-users submit proof for every single of their submission means you do not trust emulator users.

Banning emulators means you do not trust emulators.

The question is: What is the real issue here? IF you don't trust emulators to emulate correctly, there are two options:

Outright ban all emulators, or just certain ones that cannot be trusted to be used correctly.


I just think it's wrong to only target specific people with proof-submissions. If you want a site with serious competition, you should either go all out or just leave it at the semi-serious half casual competition it is right now, with like 80-90% of the users being inactive or not good at any specific games.

EDIT: If you want to change the site, I would say you should upset more people than just emulator users. If everyone is at least partially upset, you're not picking favourites.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 04, 2014, 09:41:48 AM
no y'see that is the oppisite of what I just said.

if you want to talk about pissing people off a blanket ban on emulators will nuke some or all of ff's and bertins gamegear stats just to name two big ones.

with this rule if you like your stat you can keep your stat. period. if you like your run you can submit your run period.

with all this precious time being saved using emulators you have more then enough time left over to attach your video file along side... this really isnt that hard.

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 04, 2014, 09:44:24 AM
See, the thing is I don't CARE about specific people. It's something that affects the whole site - EVERYONE. Get that in your head. You are not targetting specific people or thinking about the consequences for every single competitor. That's what I think this rule lacks.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 04, 2014, 09:52:09 AM
it will be a positive affect for everyone, even for the tiny % that have to submit video. competitors in the top 5 of this site will like the reasurance that the illegitimate device they are using is not compromising the top tier of the charts. because we know they want to play fairly too.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 04, 2014, 10:03:24 AM
Quote
Making emulator-users submit proof for every single of their submission means you do not trust emulator users.

Banning emulators means you do not trust emulators.

That logic is off. Just because two ends have a similar means, that does not imply one should achieve both ends with said means.

Jumping over a rock means jumping.

Jumping off a bridge means jumping.

------------------------------------------

The scope of this thread is being taken way too broadly, and everyone has begun to argue about several different things. Let me remind everyone of a few core concepts behind the original motion here, which I'm fairly certain everyone in the room can (or already has) agreed upon:

1) This new rule has absolutely nothing to do with players BSing. That's why we're not asking for across-the-board proof.

2) When it comes to emulation, the majority of TSC does not trust everyone submitting stats on TAS-able emulators because of TAS-ability (stfu autocorrect, I'm coining that term now.).

3) We can't just ban all TAS-able emulators (All emulators are TAS-able in some form, so the lines are blurred, which means we would have to ban all emulators.)

This is why we're only asking for proof from emulator users. Yes, a specific group is being targeted, and rightfully so. This has to be done if we're not going to entirely ban emulation because there are several potential TASers flying under the radar as we speak.

It's the last line of defense we have to keep the charts intact while still allowing emulation.

As for players whining about videos for non-emulated stats, that issue should be argued separately, in another thread.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 04, 2014, 10:09:40 AM
Let me just remind you: BSing is also possible without any kind of emulation. While TASing is probably not, the issue here still lies that this rule indicate that a few certain people have made an entire usergroup untrustworthy, which I think is unfair.

So if suddenly 20 console users bullshit all of their stats, does that mean all console users are untrustworthy?

The answer is: No. We should either go about it by a case-by-case basis, we've talked about all of this BEFORE and arrived at a stalemate. I'm offering compromises, but you all think that people will be too "targeted" with the ban of all emulators, but you acknowledge wanting to target a certain usergroup anyway.

Clearly, this is all just a discussion about convenience at this point. We're arguing convenience of all emulator users compared to convenience for the top percentage of people that compete, and either rarely use emulators or heavily depend on them.

All I'm saying is that if you want to impose a rule on an entire community just because of some black sheep, we can just force people to post proof for everything.

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 04, 2014, 10:11:18 AM
And that last line I wholeheartedly agree with, Don. But it is nonetheless off-topic.

And we've got more than just 1 black sheep here. We've got a whole fucking flock we don't know about.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 04, 2014, 03:00:11 PM
We are not talking about making things convenient for the top 5 players. We are talking about preserving the integrity of the charts.

I really think you're completely missing the point, Don. It is not and never has been an issue of trust. I'm not really sure how else to explain it though, it's been explained multiple times across this thread.

Also no, this doesn't affect everyone. Anyone who doesn't use emulators isn't affected by this whatsoever.

If we are going with the top 5 thing, I'm kinda thinking we should drop the requirement for tied non-time stats. Seems kind of silly to mandate proof for something trivial like a ring max.

edit: Also what SDM just said here^ is extremely relevant. We have a couple examples of how emulators can affect competitive players in a negative way, but to really understand why this is important, you need to realize that that's just what we know about. Imazor could just as easily have not posted a video and we would have no idea that he saved time by having his emulator lag. (Mind, this still is not an issue of trust - he very likely didn't realize it either, and no  one's accusing him of doing it intentionally.) Take into account how many charts and games we track and you can probably realize that this is potentially a very big problem precisely because we don't know how many charts are actually affected by things like this.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 04, 2014, 03:06:17 PM
I am sorry if I made this topic unbearable for everybody by bringing up points that are not the case here.
I just wanted to make sure that people remember that not everyone on TSC is a hard-ass competitor that will do everything for a stat, I am very well aware that there's all kinds of people on here that use either Emulators, Consoles or both.

I don't know about anyone else, but I would be happy with a regulation such as the one that Parax offered.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 04, 2014, 03:19:32 PM
ugh... WHAT!!! comeon! This is what we been saying lol. we just suggested changing it after night one to protect casuals. and I also like the addon about non time stats.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 04, 2014, 07:01:43 PM
Ok, honestly? This topic is dumb. It should feel dumb because it is.

Telling me any sort of weird compromise will become a permanent (or even an acceptable) solution and not just an eventual ploy for full proof in the end? That's bullshit.

Telling me this is not about trust? That's bullshit. (And this is exactly what I've been trying to get across - you may not be targeting it, but directly or indirectly, it is still being targeted whether you like it or not).


noooo... that is what a pinhead says. there's no rule making you verify if you're using an emulator or console... we have to take you for your word on that.

I get it hyper, what your saying is your afraid this new rule will expose on a wide scale how bad this problem is, and cause mass public out cry for an all out ban. In reality how this rule will be implemented is it will take many years (you might even be dead of old age by that time) to build up a huge archive of emulator runs. most of which people will only care if it happens to be a WR run, and said console person is really wanting to go for the WR. If you stand back and look at TSC as a whole with all the current rules and regulations, its is a very tiny rule.

While grandfathering in 10 years of records is even a hard pill for me to swallow; honestly I hate this the most. It is never to late to start a rule like this. Sonic games are still being made to this day, and new emulators will still be made, and as time goes on we now have a way to protect old charts that may have not been affected, and protecting future charts.

People are discussing s1 gba chart... idk if that is serious but I actually own that game. This would be a great start for the new rule.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 04, 2014, 07:11:56 PM
That's one hell of a slippery slope argument there, Hyper.

Parax pretty much hit the nail on the head when he said that this is more about verifying the accuracy of the emulation, as opposed to screening every player that comes across us for potential BS-ing.

While the latter is icing on the cake, we would never have implemented a rule like that without making it mandatory for all users to submit videos. That isn't the goal we're trying to reach.

What we are aiming to do here is protect the integrity of stats obtained via emulator. At the moment, many of the threads on this forum are expressing heavy concerns for using emulators. Some form of control HAS to be put into place on emulation, if we are not to ban it outright.

This is our only way to help ensure stats obtained on emulator are indeed performable on console. I, myself even got into a shaky issue like that when CN2T's wheel glitch method was claimed to be impossible on console. No one knew why I took my stat down or even what was going on at the time until I made a post in Rules Revisions explaining the issue.

Even though we eventually proved it to be possible on console, the doubt remains for other types of stats across various emulatable games to have similar issues.

The best way to go about this from now on is to have a hard recording of the events that occurred while acquiring an emulated stat, such that if those doubts return again (and mind you, they just did thanks to S&A bringing light, and I assure you they will again), we can just play it back and try it on console immediately, instead of having to wait three weeks in an LD thread for someone to post a duplicate video, when the person really doesn't deserve the embarrassment of being put in LD.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: RigidatoMS on April 04, 2014, 07:46:04 PM
I just want to point out that I suggested this rule a good two months ago in the thread about banning all emulators and everyone in the thread seemed to agree with it (http://www.soniccenter.org/forum/index.php?topic=5838.msg61190#msg61190), except HyperSonic. Just about everyone in there seemed to be insistent that things needed to change, and most of them seemed to be satisfied with this compromise... So yes, this -was- discussed publicly first, and did not just all of a sudden come about because of the stuff s&a posted about Dolphin.

Here is the thing I don't get. Why should this rule seriously impact anyone? It's not even about how fast your CPU is or etc, the fact about it is it only applies to emulators. If you really, really can't record your stats for whatever reason, you still have the option of playing on an official release. You can get a ton of the classic games on Steam, or Virtual Console, or Mega Collection, you can play the GameGear games on the 3DS VC or on SADX, you can get both of the Sonic Adventures on 360/ps3/pc, etc. There's a lot of options. You are perfectly allowed to get stats and not post proof for them if you're playing on an official release.

And of course, you're perfectly allowed to use emulators, too. There are just stricter proof standards now.

Those who are against it, taking this into consideration, why is this such a big problem to you?
You know my answer: keep the emulators. But I didn't understand: is it forbidden if I submit a stat done in my Android emulator and give a proof in a simple screenshot instead of a video?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 07:25:15 AM
I'm also still confused as to whether using a USB HDD on your wii for games would count as emulation. I can certainly think of differences but I'm not sure how it would affect many of the stats.

There's also using flashcarts, but I think those should be exactly like using an actual cart.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 08:11:36 AM
TimpZ I use an USB HDD, but I use my own copy of the game on it, so shouldn't it almost exactly be the same?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 09:18:19 AM
The problem is that loading works differently. Loading the levels is faster, but I have no idea how the Colours engine for example handles loading solidities, objects, visuals etc. When you look at other games like Unleashed or Generations, such mid-level loading could make a difference.

If the purpose of this rule is to weed out the potential for differences in non-official ways of running the game, I think video should be required for that as well.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 09:33:49 AM
You're probably overthinking this; Whenever I play with my Wii and the disc inside it, it loads slower than a normal wii would because the laser is slightly broken. Also, the way that the stages in colours work, is not depending on loading. It has a drawing distance depending on your camera, DsS showcased it once in one of his streams where he was able to break through something because his camera was weird.

Also, how is the wii supposed to emulate games for itself? As far as I know, using a USB loader just means that the wii reads a digital disc and everything that goes with it; It's not emulating a wii to read it, therefore it's not exactly emulation moreso than a different way to read a disc. It shouldn't be an issue of emulation in this case, really
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 09:33:55 AM
@ Android question: I think we need to do some research on emulation done on android to verify its accuracy. I would be fine with emulated stats from a phone not having a video stat given the emulation is accurate (Heaven forbid one could TAS through a phone.).

@ TimpZ: That is a valid concern and I would agree with classifying that as emulation since you're not loading the original cart/disc/official rereleased item.

But these things are sort off of the topic here. We want to figure out why the heck people are blowing up over such a minimally demanding rule. 'Cause come hell or high water, I'm going to see to it that it gets implemented.

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 05, 2014, 09:48:16 AM
When you look at other games like Unleashed or Generations, such mid-level loading could make a difference.

I don't know about Colors, but it definitely does not make a difference in Unleashed or Generations; those games only stream terrain data. The collision data for the entire stage is always loaded into memory. Faster loading wouldn't allow you to do anything that couldn't be done otherwise.

In any case, since Unleashed and Generations can both be installed to the 360 hard drive and both have digital versions available, and Generations is available on PC, I would chalk up any minor advantages gained due to loading off the hard drive (which would be strictly visual) as essentially a version difference. As far as Wii games are concerned, that is a bit murkier, since there is no legitimate way to do that, but I don't think this subject has come up before, so I wouldn't want to make a ruling on it unless someone comes up with an actual example of something like this affecting competition.

I wouldn't call it an emulation issue, though; it ultimately just comes down to however that particular game works. So I think ruling on whether that would be allowed on a case-by-case basis instead of having a blanket rule for it makes sense.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 10:29:47 AM
To make an example, in unleashed on PS3 there are spots where you literally go faster than the level art can load. If you had a way to make it load faster then you'd get the advantage of being able to see the terrain as opposed to not.

I'm no expert at the newer games or the exact implications of this. Perhaps it wouldn't be a problem in Colours, but what about Black Knight? Secret Rings? SA2B through dios mios?

I can't give a nice example like the 0.2 thing in the Colours final boss on emulator, but if you're reasoning you want videos to be able to spot such differences because you don't know of them either, I don't see why you wouldn't extent that to other unofficial ways of playing Sonic games.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Groudon on April 05, 2014, 10:35:29 AM
To make an example, in unleashed on PS3 there are spots where you literally go faster than the level art can load. If you had a way to make it load faster then you'd get the advantage of being able to see the terrain as opposed to not.

That's not dependent on speed since it doesn't happen every time.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: flying fox on April 05, 2014, 10:39:41 AM
@ Android question: I think we need to do some research on emulation done on android to verify its accuracy. I would be fine with emulated stats from a phone not having a video stat given the emulation is accurate (Heaven forbid one could TAS through a phone.).

I have been using bluestacks, my phone and my iPod for Sonic 1 and Sonic 2 for a very long time now and have seen no difference what so ever.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 05, 2014, 10:40:46 AM
I'd honestly be surprised if any of those games actually loaded anything mid-level. Emulation can potentially affect anything about the way the game runs. Running the game off an HDD should only impact loading, and there's no obvious way that it would affect how the game runs otherwise. I'm open to reconsidering if it's shown definitively that there are advantages gained by running the game off a hard drive on a system that offers no legitimate way to do that, but until then, this is just speculation.

Actually, I seem to recall Shadow the Hedgehog doing some collision streaming type stuff, but I don't know the exact details of how that works or any instances where that's problematic in a run on standard hardware.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 11:14:21 AM
I'm not sure how the games actually load from the HDD either though. Take a look at this, it's two tables of known errors in games using Dios Mios:

https://code.google.com/p/diosmios/wiki/GameIssues
http://crediar.no-ip.com/gc/

Now, the fact remains these issues are caused by from not playing it off of a disc. Not all of these problems are known and some are minor enough that they won't bother fixing them because the games run smoothly otherwise.

I'm not sure how the process works for Wii games, but I know that I've had problems booting a game or two on it (resulting in crashes a bit into the game).

That's why I think these should require video in the same manner as emulators.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 11:27:37 AM
I think the rule should extend only as far as games you didn't purchase (unofficial) and/or playing on a device/in a way not intended by the orginal developers.

if anyone can take their official game, down load it to a hard drive on a console, and not by say a homebrew way. that shouldnt be a problem
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 11:44:30 AM
I can't even state how wrong this is. You're assuming things because you don't know how they work. We should also just put proof on Wii's for playing gamecube discs and put proof on 360 users reading xbox discs, because you don't know how it affects the gameplay, right?

I can see problems with maybe dios mios, but for Wii games: The wii is literally reading a disc from a hard drive. There is NO EMULATION INVOLVED. I switch the usage of disc and harddrive from time to time and I don't see any different behaviour from just changing the medium you use.

Maybe that might also be because, for both, I use my own disc. If there was any difference with any other discs, well...
Colours has this small feature where different copies have a different internal timer. I wouldn't be surprised if there were really small, other changes depending on the copy of colours you use.

Nonetheless: There shouldn't be any huge issues, and even if there were, you could not benefit from them. Crashing a game in the middle of an IL is not exactly... helpful.

EDIT: I've managed to crash my game on disc before, so... I really don't think it's a harddrive issue.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 11:54:54 AM
Everytime I say something you misinterpret me. why would we require proof for a gamecube game being played on wii? this is official and intended by nintendo. thus any console user, with a copy of the game can do it.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 05, 2014, 11:57:43 AM
https://code.google.com/p/diosmios/wiki/GameIssues
http://crediar.no-ip.com/gc/

I don't see a single listing in either of these links that affects gameplay.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 12:04:21 PM
I am not misinterpreting you, I am merely questioning your logic. Just because you don't know how something might behave doesn't mean it will always be in the favor of the person using it, nor does it mean that physical copies

Also why is that question so impossible to answer? I am just asking that if you don't know how well the emulation of the game is because of backwards compability, put proof on it, because that's what you're asking right now.

 To give another example: I have shadow the hedgehog for xbox and play it on 360. I've been told it behaves differently than on xbox, which is why it results in a lot more softlocks and crashes.
I can crash the game by just pressing start at a weird time.
I just told you that the Wii playing a Wii game on harddrive is not prone to doing that, because i have a lot of experience with it and tried a lot of stuff with it.

My Wii playing my game on a harddrive is better than my 360 'emulating' my xbox game. That is a fact that I can rely on, even if you think I'm biased, I have a lot of experience to back it up. If you want I can also bring a lot of evidence to show to what ends backwards compability can screw up a game, i would just need to record my shadow the hedgehog adventures.

You can't just apply logic and then back it up by saying "but even if official emulation screws up, it's fine".

As for that, there's a rule for Sonic 3: * Any re-released version of this game (official or unofficial) that has been modified to create a functional change to level layouts is not permitted for use in competition.

If we were to translate that, it means we could use wrong backwards compability emulation as an actual argument, or maybe say that all re-releases should be put proof on because they're not to be trusted, even if they're on standardized hardware. I mean my SMC+ game can crash too, as it's a windows game, so i should always put proof on any stat that i can make with it, right?

TL;DR: This whole thing is foolish and we already derailed the topic enough as is.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 12:20:21 PM
Don you're completely missing the issue here. A game can have glitches that don't necessarily crash the game. Perhaps one that affect the timer in some way. There's a very big difference in using official releases on dedicated hardware and unofficial hardware. It's like overclocking the CPU in your Wii, it might look good on the outside and seemingly lag less but without intimate knowledge on the coding of the game you can't expect what will happen.

Parax, look at Legend of Spyro, The: A New Beginning USA. It notes having a glitch where some form of false hit makes the game unplayable, so obviously hitboxes or similar can be affected. P.N. 03 USA crashes at a specific point in gameplay, indicating that code in general can be affected in unpredictable ways. Other than that it's mostly music, video and crashes that are noted there, because that's what they're motivated to fix. Unlike a potential timing error that might make a boss faster because a certain animation comes up 0.2 seconds earlier that no'one would notice unless they meticulously studied the differences compared to the original to find them.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 12:22:08 PM
Like I said: I can see the problem for Dios Mios, but not for actual Wii Games, since it's not emulation.

And no, I am not missing the point here. I am just merely bringing up that "official" emulation does not mean "reliable".
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 12:30:13 PM
don with all due respect, your free to make another thread complaining about how we should require proof for your concerns on official backwards compatible devices. and people be more then happy to debate and ultimately knock it down. (for reasons everone seems to get) but as sdm keeps mentioning your really do keep going off topic whether you know it are not.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 12:33:31 PM
Official emulation, reliable or not, is still invariant. It doesn't get updates every so often and unless it's on a PC the hardware is identical as well. If a game is different enough from the original the community can decide not to compete in it, like with Sonic Genesis on GBA. Or it can be a new category, like S1-13.

It has nothing to do with emulator XYZ v0.8.5984c using a multitude of settings to make the game less buggy on your specific machine.

While you're running Wii games on the hardware itself, you're still changing the intended way of input. What if a stage expects the loading time to be long and doesn't start the timer until a specific point, giving it an upper hand in competition? I know that's how it works in S2 with the title cards. They don't wait until everything has been loaded, it's actually on a timer since the developers were smart enough to optimise their code.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 12:35:52 PM
We are all so off the topic it's not even funny. Not just Don.

We need to get back to the main point here and wrap this up. We've discussed everything that needs to be discussed regarding providing videos for emulators. Let's finish what we started here and put that rule back up.

We can take the Wii stuff to a separate thread. That deserves a topic of its own.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 12:44:08 PM
Fin.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 05, 2014, 12:47:16 PM
^ Was about to post something like this. As I've stated earlier, we're not making rules against loading Wii games from a hard drive unless someone can come up with definitive proof that it can have a negative effect on gameplay -in a Sonic game-. Consider that an official ruling on the subject. If you wanna debate it further, start a new thread for it, but it has absolutely nothing to do with emulators. I'll be removing any other posts in this thread on the subject.

To get back on topic, there seems to be a couple options up in the air right now, and I'd like to hear from everyone on which one would be the best one to proceed with. Aside from limiting the scope of the rule to merely top 5 stats, a few people on IRC the other were in favor of banning emulators outright, because they saw it as a more consistent and ultimately more effective ruling.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 12:48:13 PM
Parax, I would personally propose a new Topic so it's not stained with all the off-topic in here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 12:50:17 PM
Banning emulation outright has a major implication attached: You're gonna have to either find and prune out all emulation-acquired stats (including nearly all of my work on S3, sadface.) or just totally nuke the whole place and restart the charts.

Neither one of those options looks attractive.

Regarding "Top X%": There's no way of knowing pre-recording that you are going to have the Top 5 when you're done with the run. So if that was aimed in some way at casuals, it will only hurt them the moment they fluke and get a very strong stat, only to find they can't submit it because they weren't recording.

Also who's in the Top 5 can change for many reasons, and if a stat moves from 6th to 5th (because of someone else's stat removal), it will also lack a recording to prove it to retain its position.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 12:54:43 PM
I would say ban emulators (for the most part). We should bring up that certain games, such as sonic jam and sonic pocket adventure, are rather rare to come by, so we should find a special ruling for those.

As for the stats, they should probably remain untouched. I would go as far to say that we wouldn't even be able to look at them and be able to tell which of those were indeed emulator stats and which not.

Also it would be unfair to undo 10 years of work on this site, but times change. If we make this rule I am sure that we will be able to keep the site emulator free from now on.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 12:57:07 PM
Sonic Jam's versions of the games are already banned outright.

Also I ninjaedited a couple posts ago, you might wanna go back and read the updated post.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 05, 2014, 12:58:00 PM
Sonic Jam has charts, though, so it is a factor to some degree.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 01:09:31 PM
Oh, my bad. I get what Don meant now.

Yeah I'd really rather not ban emulation. That's a really nice convenience to have and while it is quite a shame that we have some sneaky players and some uncompared glitches, that is no reason to take away the resources from honorable players who enjoy the games they compete in but only have access to emulators.

Similarly, emulators provide a major convenience, -especially for the genesis era games-, where pre-level savestates are the norm. More explicitly, these savestates are usually for level select screens (With all chaos emeralds up and 1 super) and for starting a level with some item boxes dug up and/or glitches activated from the previous act. Removing emulation greatly increases time between attempts due to a heavily increased setup time.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: flying fox on April 05, 2014, 01:13:25 PM
Yeah I'd really rather not ban emulation. That's a really nice convenience to have and while it is quite a shame that we have some sneaky players and some uncompared glitches, that is no reason to take away the resources from honorable players who enjoy the games they compete in but only have access to emulators.

Similarly, emulators provide a major convenience, -especially for the genesis era games-, where pre-level savestates are the norm. More explicitly, these savestates are usually for level select screens (With all chaos emeralds up and 1 super) and for starting a level with some item boxes dug up and/or glitches activated from the previous act. Removing emulation greatly increases time between attempts due to a heavily increased setup time.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 01:16:32 PM
~Any~ arguments for convenience of emulators should be void. IF you want to use that you could use sonic mega collection (+), which has a savestate feature, and cost me like 3 euros.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 01:18:00 PM
Unless I can load that state more than once it's not useful.

Unless I can store more than one state it's not useful.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 01:19:53 PM
you can store multiple saves.

you can load one save at a time, and it will stay saved.


Now could you please stop making me sound like i'm trying to sell SMC+!
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 01:20:52 PM
You kind of just did. :P

That does make me feel partially at ease, but what about other games which might rely on this also but be outside the scope of SMC+?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 01:21:20 PM
I think the originally proposed idea was just fine. The only thing I wanted to extend on it was on other things that border between console and emulator or potential console mods since I know this is a problem in other games, such as Metroid Prime 2. A good definition of the proof that is required other than "movie" is still due though

In general I approve of an increase of proof and media on this site as not only does it strengthen the validity of it, but also provides a nice bank of videos that will be readily available to beginners trying to improve. For me this is a step in the right direction.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 01:29:34 PM
Absolutely. Just have the rule written as it was. Don't add the Top X crap for reasons I stated earlier, and for god's sake don't ban all emulation.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 01:31:27 PM
I say no on an emulator ban unless it comes with a site nuke and we call this tsc 4.

yes to the rule, and yes to top 5.. I ment to adress is earlier about 6th being pushed into 5th, I believe they should be grandfather'd. if you were 6th and now 5th ur more then likely still beatable. the only senerio where this fails is 1 - 6 use emulator and top 5 get nuked... which I believe is highly unlikely

on the flip side we could go back to the roots and require all emulator runs to provide proof, honestly though we will have people posting their 87th place with emulator with this, but for the record im for top 5

yes to exempting tied ring records
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 01:34:18 PM
SDM, your convenience will not be troubled if you have sonic gems collection, as it covers all non-SMC+ games with official savestate options.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 01:36:36 PM
No to exempting tied ring records. You better believe those S3 RA's take a shitton of effort. I recorded every single one of mine, and if you want to match what I achieved, you better be able to show your credentials for having done so too.

I can understand an EH1 RA but I better see a vid if you dare to say you matched my 829 LB2K.

</angry defensive stance>

@Don now I gotta buy 2 games? Honestly I'd rather have my emulator. The saves are at the press of a key for me, whereas I'd have to navigate a menu to shuffle over to the save I want in SMC+/Gems.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 01:57:17 PM
I don't know SDM, you clearly provide that your ~convenience~ is something you would want to keep.
With that i would go to my initial statement that the rule is void, because there are even more people that are not going to get top stats, are casual competitors, and probably wouldnt want to have to deal with submitting proof for every single green or blue stat they're getting.

Also flimsy, no matter WHAT we do: This is going to be a BIG change for TSC. If we take the rule, we will still grandfather those stats. If we ban emulators, we will still grandfather those stats, since we have no way to prove or not prove most of these stats as emulated or not. You can't really break a law that hasn't existed, so...

All in all, I'm just seeing "I would rather keep emulators for MY convenience sake, because i'm not going to be bothered by the rule." rather than "We want a fair playing field between consoles and emulators." Maybe I really am too biased, but still.

If we're gonna make convenience a thing I'm not gonna shut up about it.

Banning emulators is the only step that makes sense and everybody suffers from it the same. And you gain the fact that inaccurate emulation will never be a thing.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 05, 2014, 02:05:26 PM
Banning emulators doesn't make sense to me firstly because of the tradition of this site and secondly because unofficial emulators can be more accurate than the official ones. Or maybe you're suggesting we should ban official emulators as well, which doesn't make sense either.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 02:08:29 PM
I thought when we were talking about ring exemptions we were talking about sonic 3d blast type of crap. if your the only record holder and someone claims to tie you with an emulator, yes of course, we need video.

it wont be that big of a change, just a severly small group has to provide proof now. nobody in mhc wants to talk about this cuz they dont care, "with the it wont affect me" thing.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 02:11:01 PM
@Don You speak as if I'm the only one affected by such a stance. FF, who has also been through several of my hellish RA's, immediately vouched for me when I said how majorly an emulation ban would affect that field in particular.

That said, convenience is just one reason not to ban emulation. It's not the only reason.

It seems to me like you're upset because you feel like I'm not being affected by the rule for some reason. Well, EXCUSE ME for actually upholding higher standards of integrity before they have become expected of us!

Whether that is the case or not, for the same reason you can't be pissed off about a ruling not forcing everyone to adjust their seating a bit or be less comfortable.

That's like saying "Oh adding a ban on pork isn't fair because people who don't eat pork aren't going to be affected. They should be punished somehow too. HEY I KNOW! Let's make them not eat chicken!"
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 05, 2014, 02:15:24 PM
You know spindashmaster, you're kind of right.

Except this isnt a choice of food, this is competition. This is a serious issue for me that people want to keep emulators for selfish, convenience reasons, and that's all that matters in our little conversation. I can understand that people want to make this site more serious for competition, but god forbid you have to use actual consoles or ports of the games you want to play, because the one-press-button-reset isnt a thing!

P.S.: Everytime I RA Sonic Advance I have to reset and wait around 20 seconds until i can start again, because it takes that long to reset the game in console. I make that decision actively, because it would be unfair to say that emulator usage would bring the advantage of savestates to begin with.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 05, 2014, 02:18:55 PM
That's a personal decision you make. Just because you don't want to save time between attempts, doesn't mean WE don't.

If anything that's being capricious and trying to make everyone else suffer because you feel like you suffer somehow.

Call me when you try to RA IC2T without the aid of pre-level saves. You will see how precious that time is.

To drive the point home, pre-level saves are not a competitive advantage of any sort. They are a time-saver outside of the domain of competition. One way or another, I'm gonna start the level I want to start with the setup I need. It either takes me 40 minutes to do that or 0.5 seconds to do that. Neither method has any impact on the outcome of my performance once the run begins, so why would I choose the 40-minute option?

Honestly, who's going to enjoy competition when they can't freely enjoy the benefit of harmless timesavers such as this, instead having to spend more time setting up than actually competing?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 05, 2014, 05:19:00 PM
Ok, even between just us im still pretty confused on what we all agree and disagree about. Plus a lack of variety on people putting in their two cents (which I believe is making everyone a bit nervous in acting either way). I think the lack of a big variety of opinion though, is because the lack of people this will actually affect.

Can I suggest we just go ahead with the rule now. (if its not already going.) with NO changes, no exceptions, nothing, but what parax said in post #1?

Then wait for other threads of complaints to pop up when/if they do with "ACTUAL" people this rule is effecting and adjust the rule accordingly?

Can we agree on that?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: RigidatoMS on April 05, 2014, 05:19:38 PM
@ Android question: I think we need to do some research on emulation done on android to verify its accuracy. I would be fine with emulated stats from a phone not having a video stat given the emulation is accurate (Heaven forbid one could TAS through a phone.).
My Android runs Mega Drive and Mega CD(Sega CD in Japan) games perfectly when I'm with few apps open.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Parax on April 06, 2014, 01:21:29 AM
I don't think you can really discount the setup time as part of obtaining the stat, either. If it takes a long time to set up for a stat, and you just savestate after the setup, how is that not an advantage over console players? If you couldn't reset as easily, there's a higher chance you would decide the time you're putting in isn't worth it and accept a worse stat. You could probably make the argument that the setup time is part of the run, too, albeit a lengthy and easy part.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 06, 2014, 01:37:25 AM
Then how about we ban level select too, then? Since that's basically a cheat code, and all it does is save time before a level begins.

No, that's absurd. There is no competitive skill involved in setting up a run. Just tediousness. That's not a factor in competition so much as what takes place in the actual level.

How can one seriously say they'd rather spend 40 minutes between attempts when it can be an instant retry? We all know it's possible to setup on console and do so in that amount of time, and sure one could take pride in doing so on console that way, but all emulation does is let these stats be acquired sooner rather than later. The same in-level skill is required regardless of setup time. I can spend that 40 minutes of setup, pause, come back in the morning and start up again with a fresh set of eyes. There's literally no -competitive- difference between the two setups, ceteris paribus.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 06, 2014, 05:58:15 AM
Just putting this out there, we should ban checkpoint abuse.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v204/How_Cool_is_That/GIFS/PRBeatdown_zps047454b6.gif)


Seriously though I'm 100% with SDM on this one. I'm not sure what games other than S3K this is applicable for, but I think allowing such savestates and even allowing starting a stage from the transition at all increases the competitiveness of the stats. Not to mention, how unfair would it be to grandfather old stats for which using savestates was allowed? There'd be stats that would be practically impossible to beat.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 06:12:55 AM
You know, there are stat that are impossible to beat.

Because they're maxed.

To go back on the topic: I don't think lazyness should be rewarded with easier obtainable stats, if we're gonna talk banning emulators because they're inaccurate, untrustworthy, occasionally hiccup, or any other actual issues, the reason that "I don't want to have to set up anything else than a savestate" is... not very logical.

Given that you would only take 5 more seconds to set up a savestate with SMC+, anyway.
I mean if you're not even willing to take these 5 more seconds in order to assure proper and fair competition, then I don't know what the heck you're doing on this site, because I couldn't even consider you a "serious" competitor. That is, if 5 seconds is the thing that would keep you from competing.

That is if we're planning to make this site more serious about it's competition, because either way.
Also if we're gonna talk about how 'unfair' it would be to keep emulator stats with savestates: We'll have to keep them, without proof, even if we accept this rule. So either way, I already brought up competetive distortion in the last discussion about this and nobody cared. You can't just bring something up that was an argument in the last topic and expect that it will work this time, because in both cases, the competition of old will have an advantage over the new rules.

EDIT: Also, if something was possible on JUST emulator, then why wasn't it banned in the first place? I thought this is what originated this discussion?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 06, 2014, 08:10:29 AM
You know, there are stat that are impossible to beat.

Because they're maxed.

Semantics >_>. Obviously I meant beating or tying. It does not change the fact that the stat you're trying to achive might have been achieved by someone else, only you might have to do an hour of setup while they didn't.

Also, Don, please... This is why we would demand videos for unofficial emulators. To promote more serious and fair competition in the event that you would use one of them. Ugh...

If something like a glitch or strat is only possible on emulator then obviously it would be banned. Savestates doesn't affect the game itself, it's a function outside it (and for competition irrelevant as long as you don't use them while attaining the stat).
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 08:17:05 AM
Are you just straight up ignoring the fact that there's official emulators with savestate functions, or how many damn times to I have to say that they exist?

It's just stupid trying to argue with convenience when there's a clear, official alternative, if you absolutely  HAVE to rely on savestates in order to be competetive. Also if there was anything wrong with that it would just be seen as a version difference, because it still is official.

Also what could possibly promote fair competition more than banning unofficial emulators?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 06, 2014, 10:15:12 AM
The problem I see with this topic derailing agian, and talking about banning all unofficial emulators cuz we have smc with savestates so problem solved, as don mentioned is~

Yah sure we could, but I mean we dont have to. This rule provides us with all the checks and balances we need to combat the problem

dare I say with this rule allowing unofficial emulators still could be helpful? Remember we are granfathering stats in, if we allow people to keep playing on emulators they could potentially figure out enough information to ultimately conclude one of the grandfathered stats is in no way possible on console; in a sense helping with clean up.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 06, 2014, 10:20:59 AM
Bear in mind, the potential for banning emulation outright would not be off the table entirely should we implement this rule: we wanted to try to do this before banning emulation outright.

Can we not just implement this last line of defense before shutting down the whole damn thing? If we -still- have trouble after that then I would be okay with banning emulation. But for now, I'd like to at least see how this rule pans out for us.

There's really no reason not to try the lighter household hammer first before whupping out the fucking battery ram.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 10:22:49 AM
You're a little late on that, we've been talking about grandfathering stats in ever since the start of the conversation. Either way, the old stats will have an advantage no matter WHAT rule we come up with, and I keep saying that over and over again.

Saying that keeping emulators because old stats might have had an advantage there is like admitting to stats only being competable on emulator, which is a moot point because you are not supposed to have an competetive edge on emulator.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 06, 2014, 10:27:50 AM
Can we not just implement this last line of defense before shutting down the whole damn thing? If we -still- have trouble after that then I would be okay with banning emulation. But for now, I'd like to at least see how this rule pans out for us.

yes, hit the button, do it.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 06, 2014, 10:30:26 AM
Back up. I just established there's no competitive differences in setting up a run.

As i said earlier:

Quote
To drive the point home, pre-level saves are not a competitive advantage of any sort. They are a time-saver outside of the domain of competition. One way or another, I'm gonna start the level I want to start with the setup I need. It either takes me 40 minutes to do that or 0.5 seconds to do that. Neither method has any impact on the outcome of my performance once the run begins, so why would I choose the 40-minute option?

Honestly, who's going to enjoy competition when they can't freely enjoy the benefit of harmless timesavers such as this, instead having to spend more time setting up than actually competing?

This isn't laziness moreso than it is common sense.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 10:40:48 AM
Common sense that gives you an edge competetively, because setting up a run is preparation, which is part of competing.

Or are you going to argue that preparing to have 99 lives in say, unleashed, in order to get a series of attempts through, is not a competetive edge that everybody can work for? I know people that dont even save their stat, they record it and then reset their console in order not to lose that edge/preparation time. If there was a way to savestate for that game or emulate it, it would give you a competetive edge in terms of preparation.

I've already stated that for Sonic Advance in one of my prior posts where emulators get the edge for not having to reset the game and wait 20 seconds.



The only difference is that you don't have to work for it and take it for granted, SDM. It IS a competetive edge, you just don't see it or argue with it because you want to protect your convenience. And yes, it is lazyness, because you can't be arsed to either savestate with an official emulator or use level select.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 06, 2014, 10:54:39 AM
oh come on now, attacking convenience is kind of silly. maybe we should all turn off our A/C's because our Uganda buddy timpz mentioned plays without A/C and that gives us a competitive edge because we are comfortable while we play. Which is part of competing. Lets not go there.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 10:59:33 AM
You could also argue that defending convenience is kind of silly. People go out of their way to compete on consoles. If we're talking about "fair and serious competetion", then it's not fair for someone like FF or SDM to use savestates in order not to have to set up a run on an official version of the game. It basically discourages console usage, as far as convenience goes and that is a part of competing, whether you like it or not. I've tried to defend the convenience of half-casual competitors and was chewed out for it. It's not going to work that way, flimsy.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 06, 2014, 11:26:18 AM
don I'll be honest. I have to drink heavily to become competitive, for me it seems to slow down the game and gives me more reaction time. that is a convenience for me, that others don't get to share. we should ban beer would be your argument. (which I really would leave then lol)

There is no such way to implement a 1:1 be all fairness, and what your arguing isn't a problem because as slim as a chance it may be, lets take sdm's record with the 40 min setup time... its still POSSIBLE, possible, that is the key word.

I know your going to keep posting your soliloquy, but you can make more threads for these if it seems like a huge problem.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Staf on April 06, 2014, 11:31:24 AM
I have no problem with banning emulators completely and only allowing official releases. Even if the official release is a Game Gear game played on a 3DS using the save state to begin the level over and over again without getting to the level each time.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 06, 2014, 11:34:20 AM
I'm just going to answer this once and then hopefully be done with it, because I myself get tired of having to repeat this over and over and over again:

Emulators are not supposed to give you an edge over consoles, even if it's just convenience.

You can drink all you want if you think it enhances your skills in competing, as long as you do it on console, as it's not going to give you an edge that emulation could bring. And that is the actual issue here, not the fact that you're a drunk playing video games. Also as Staf stated, there are viable official alternatives to doing that, so... try convincing me again, pal. Better yet, don't.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 06, 2014, 11:38:36 AM
Im up for the complete ban, I just mentioned we don't need to do it~ one day we were all about protecting the precious casuals and now we are not.

if official and unofficial emulators both have save states what is the convenience issue that is being argued?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Staf on April 06, 2014, 11:43:08 AM
The convenience is being argued on games that don't support it, I believe. To do the Sonic Advance 2 special stages would take a lot of effort right now on console, but if it were to be released on the Wii U Virtual Console then it would give us save states making it much easier.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 06, 2014, 01:38:27 PM
Being drunk while doing runs is a form of doping. I propose we hereby require a blood sample sent to Parax personally for analysis in conjunction with every submitted stat to prevent this.

Don is arguing that the lack of setup time is an advantage for emulators. This is true. However, the number of stats this is important for is negligible afaik (where setting up again takes at least a minute) and I don't think it's a valid enough concern to take such a drastic step at this time by banning all emulators.

And again, I think banning all unofficial emulators, but not official ones, is silly if adequate proof is given. Just create a list of emulators that are "approved" like Fusion and Regen and then require an input file from savestate if it's on Gens (to take the example with Genesis).
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 06, 2014, 01:39:32 PM
Emulators are not supposed to give you an edge over consoles, even if it's just convenience.

What edge? What fucking edge? The achieved stat, ceteris paribus, is no different. We are strictly talking about time-saving methods outside of the level.

To say that saving time between attempts is a competitive advantage is complete and total bull. This is becoming simply a matter of punishing honorable players because people want to whine for whatever reason they can.

You cast aside this kind of methodology as if convenience is something you want to ban because "heaven forbid we used an emulator!"

News flash: an emulator ban will stop nothing. Neither will this ruling. What we are aiming to do with the video proof rule is to give emulation one more fair shot for the honorable players who still use it.

To outright immediately ban all emulation instead of trying the rule first is presumptuous and downright bitchy.

I mean, more power to you if you use a console and want to spend the extra time between attempts. That's awesome. But don't impose your beliefs on everyone else just because "Oh I want to use consoles, so EVERYONE has to!"
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 08:13:34 PM
Anyway that about wraps it up for the gripefest regarding banning emulation and Top X%. Can we move along with the initial ruling, please?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Gpro on April 07, 2014, 08:33:10 PM
Welp, SDM. All I have to say is from what I've noticed, in your posts you've made a lot of usage of "me" and "I" and maybe "us", leaning towards yourself, but a strange lack of betterment of all competition and competitors, in a way seemingly like putting yourself on a pedestal. A lot of points I've seen you make disregard the competition as a whole, and I highly disagree

Don has made points that go as "this rule isn't affecting many, but rather the few". The convenience topic is irrelevant in itself except for the fact that it wouldn't hurt the competition overall in terms of convenience, not holding it as even a main argument, yet you have persisted an argument towards it and taking it more personally than you should have allowed.

Why would I post this? I find your opinions extremely subjective as aimed at yourself rather than competition and competitors as a whole. You seem to disregard them. That is not how rules should be made. They should be for everyone, not just for ONE person, or a FEW people, unless only those people apply (which, btw, they do not apply for the few, as a large portion of people use emulators, as far as I am concerned)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 08:44:15 PM
Sounds like you skimmed over page 6 and made a quick reply.

Here's the skinny:

The majority of the usage of "I" was used in the subject and not the predicate. And the usages of "we" and "us" refer to most of TSC. And there's not a whole lot of "me." Translation: That was a rash assumption you made.

Don did a lot more than "make points" as you allege. Several of his posts launch personal attacks against others, myself being only one of the targets. So yeah, when the time comes you better believe this gets personal.

Don has been arguing to ban emulation based on an attack on convenience. Many (including you just now) have misread my counterpoints as a full on argument. I frankly couldn't care less about my stance on emulation.

So, whatever it is that makes you think I have my hand in the cookie jar, think twice. My stance is as follows:

There are currently two choices on the table, a light sanction and a really heavy sanction.

Why choose the heavier sanction first (banning emulation), when you can at least try life with the lighter sanction first (requiring video for emulation-acquired stats), and revisit the former topic if it remains an issue?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 07, 2014, 08:53:15 PM
Hold up.

I made a single personal attack on S&A for being banned because I didn't know better, since he was supposed to be banned and I didn't know about the situation. Things like that do not mean that I KEPT attacking people.

Also I have said a multitude of times that there's official emulators that bring barely any less convenience than your inofficial emulators.

Yes, I have given examples with you in it, but not as a personal attack. I did not once say something like "I CANT BELIEVE SDM WANTS THIS RULE, I CANT BELIEVE HE HAS MORE CONVENIENCE THAN ME, ETC."

I've been trying to keep as neutral as possible and will continue to do so.

P.S.: Don't call me bitchy. Neither of these rules even concern me as a competitor, it's just that banning emulators would be a purer step if you will, as it gets rid of all inofficial emulation, hiccups, TASability and what not, with a few exceptions for rare to obtain games.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 08:59:15 PM
I don't know SDM, you clearly provide that your ~convenience~ is something you would want to keep.

Right.

And you're not the only person I'm calling bitchy from that line a few posts ago. Everyone who had the opinion of banning emulation also had witch hunt written all over their posts. They were being presumptuous.

All I really want to discuss at this point is why we can't do the lighter sanction before permanently laying down the heavier one. Then we can all be done here.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Gpro on April 07, 2014, 09:07:15 PM
@Don You speak as if I'm the only one affected by such a stance. FF, who has also been through several of my hellish RA's, immediately vouched for me when I said how majorly an emulation ban would affect that field in particular.

That said, convenience is just one reason not to ban emulation. It's not the only reason.

It seems to me like you're upset because you feel like I'm not being affected by the rule for some reason. Well, EXCUSE ME for actually upholding higher standards of integrity before they have become expected of us!

Whether that is the case or not, for the same reason you can't be pissed off about a ruling not forcing everyone to adjust their seating a bit or be less comfortable.

That's like saying "Oh adding a ban on pork isn't fair because people who don't eat pork aren't going to be affected. They should be punished somehow too. HEY I KNOW! Let's make them not eat chicken!"

Lemme get this straight... "My hellish RAs" isn't a personal thing?  "Well, EXCUSE ME for actually upholding higher standards of integrity before they have become expected of us!" Um... And the last comparison as well? How is this an argument for anything, or even any kind of comparison for anything at all? I'm just seeing some straying away from the initial topic.

I've seen both you AND Don firing shots, so whatever puts you in a better argument is beyond me.

Also insulting my intelligence is irrelevant to the topic as well, so your lesson is ignored.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 09:09:08 PM
Now you've misread twice. I said I was being personal.

And to quote SprintGod: "If you don't want to be treated like you're stupid, the best defence is to not be stupid."

Also Don's and my posts going at each other go further back than that, so while I appreciate you went beyond page 6 this time, I'd appreciate it if you went to before page 5 also.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: flying fox on April 07, 2014, 09:13:18 PM
Ok this topic has derailed so many times now especially with people arguing at each other, it's getting really stupid now. From now on post in here if you have something constructive to say about the rule, if I see any posts that don't do this I will remove them. 
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 09:14:49 PM
To reiterate, here's what I'd like for us to discuss:

Why choose the heavier sanction first (banning emulation), when you can at least try life with the lighter sanction first (requiring video for emulation-acquired stats), and revisit the former topic if it remains an issue?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 07, 2014, 09:19:46 PM
To go back to SDM's argument that: 'You cast aside this kind of methodology as if convenience is something you want to ban because "heaven forbid we used an emulator!"'

I just don't see the point of the rule. I've already said time and time again, that if we're going to put proof on emulator and emulator ONLY, just to see if some runs were fake, TASed, or whatever else, we might as well ban emulators. Convenience was never a point I made, it was on SDM's side in this second part of the discussion, that I had to point out in order to show the flaws of the logic behind it. Which, he still hasn't responded why it's impossible to get a 3 dollar version of an official emulator that adds a minor extra inconvenience.

But I digress.

It's to directly take away the tools to make fake, maybe unobtainable stats from the current "herd of black sheep" you were talking about way earlier in the topic.

I am merely extending your own logic rather than using my own. My personal opinion is that emulators should stay as is, we've been catching BSers lately, and that means that we have been able to discern fake from real stats without any addition to the competetive system.

If our concern is not being taken seriously as a competetive site, then we need an entire new proof system rather than a sub-optimal rule that targets just a certain group of people instead of keeping the playing field even.

Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 07, 2014, 09:24:41 PM
I am merely extending your own logic rather than using my own. My personal opinion is that emulators should stay as is, we've been catching BSers lately, and that means that we have been able to discern fake from real stats without any addition to the competetive system.

I swear if I see this stuff suggesting this rule is to catch a bser one more time...

Its a not a bser we are after, period. its emulations flaws.

If a byproduct of the rule is that people purposely TASing stop competing, good!
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 09:25:01 PM
The "flock" refers to what Parax already clarified upon:

edit: Also what SDM just said here^ is extremely relevant. We have a couple examples of how emulators can affect competitive players in a negative way, but to really understand why this is important, you need to realize that that's just what we know about. Imazor could just as easily have not posted a video and we would have no idea that he saved time by having his emulator lag. (Mind, this still is not an issue of trust - he very likely didn't realize it either, and no  one's accusing him of doing it intentionally.) Take into account how many charts and games we track and you can probably realize that this is potentially a very big problem precisely because we don't know how many charts are actually affected by things like this.

We're not trying to stop "fake" or unobtainable stats here (Though that is always nice to do so). We're trying to catch goofs with inaccurate emulation (in the case of Wii), and prevent TASing in many forms (on the Genesis-era games).

Neither of these things are easily detectable at the moment, which is why we want to request video. It will help us verify the run wasn't TAS-ed in the case of Genesis, and verify that nothing on emulator was done that couldn't on console (Wii).
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 07, 2014, 09:27:46 PM
So...

how does banning emulators not do that?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 09:28:40 PM
To reiterate:

Both rulings attempt to accomplish the same goal. Why not implement the lighter sanction first and revisit the heavier one later if we still need to?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Thorn on April 07, 2014, 09:39:50 PM
I tried typing three different posts about the way this topic has progressed, but not one of them sat right with me. So instead of writing a nice, logical post that somehow sifts through the bickering and creates a nice resolution, I'm going to say what I actually want to say.

SDM, you argue like an asshole. The posts you made in the past few minutes are sedate, and I appreciate that. However, the majority of your posts in the topic are not. Making claims that you have no official stance on things and accusing individuals of misconstruing what you're saying even as I and several people I talk to interpret your words the same way without us influencing each other, telling us what is and is not "competitive" and saying it relies just on what's done in the level when you know full well it takes competitive skill to set up runs in the first place (e.g., carrying slope glitch from Act 1 to Act 2) and a savestate makes it much easier, saying that convenience isn't a factor when your vouching for Parax's ruling clearly oozes of "it doesn't inconvenience me, so let's not go any farther because that would", personal attacks aimed at people while you yell at them for making personal attacks, Latin just for the sake of making people have to go look it up... every post you've made lately has infuriated me to some extent, and if you didn't mean for them to be that way, then I need you to stop typing until you can express yourself properly.

sonicandamy posted a valid concern about an emulation issue with Dolphin. The fact that we so quickly moved to "all emulators likely have serious problems" blows my mind. Dolphin and Bluestacks are clearly a different case than a Genesis emulator due to the processing power needed to run it. If we want to insist on accuracy for emulating weaker systems, then we should be pushing for usage of accurate emulators instead of creating extra hurdles. For example, we could insist on Regen (http://segaretro.org/Regen) instead of the more inaccurate Gens variants for applicable games. Beyond that, sonicandamy has been allowed to do more than present his valid point and what he thinks should be done; he's been allowed to actively debate in one of the most argumentative threads on the forum. Granted, his behavior hasn't been terrible so far, but allowing somebody who has repeatedly bandodged and has even posted to YouTube that Parax takes bribes of boob pics for TSC decisions and that I stole the $4000 we raised for charity is basically letting him know that it's okay to make the staff look like fools if he occasionally does something productive. I'm rather sickened that he's still being allowed here to argue a situation that is evolving beyond the issue he presented, but I guess that concern ultimately doesn't solve this debate. I did have to get it off my chest, though.



Here's the deal. If you want to post here, you get to say what you think TSC's stance on emulation should be and why another ruling would have problems. That doesn't mean to find exactly what your debate opponent has said and knock it down point by point; this isn't about saying your opponent's reasoning is faulty. It means you should mention the issues that matter to you the most and say how they get addressed with your desired ruling. You get one post from here on out, and you can edit it to add points/concerns if you think of them on your own or by reading another post, but you are not to say "addressing the post below, I disagree because..." or similar because it's been quite the argument starter so far. I want to see people argue a point without playing some sort of psychological game. If I can teach high school students to do it, then the twenty-somethings that are currently arguing can do it too.

Any personal attacks, either directly or indirectly, will lead to a tempban. Do I make myself clear?
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 07, 2014, 09:54:30 PM
When in Rome, do as the Romans do, Thorn. I won't sit idle while people make rash claims and personal attacks. You can't deny several people actually did the same thing well before I jumped into the fray, and you certainly can't blame me for taking the same infuriated attitude as I had while I was reading the same types of attacks from others.

So you can take this forum and shove it. I'm done worrying about this crap if this is the attitude you're going to take, when all I've done is counterpoint and defend.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Don on April 07, 2014, 09:57:58 PM
In this one post, I will say exactly what I think:

This rule is bad. It creates more loop holes than there are right now, it just straight up ignores that some emulators are better than others on a competetive level, as they don't actually have capabilities to TAS, and are simply more viable than others.

We're basically making this rule to avoid trusting our competitors using them. We would want to catch people that abuse emulator functions for their own good and stray away from using them without any rule breaking.

While emulator "hiccups" that change how games work might be a thing in certain  games, I must say that the emulator experience I have had with Fusion made it rather hard for me to cheat anything, or TAS anything, and it always went at full speed.

The current active rule with emulation is that "If the game doesn't run at full speed, the stat is void." Making a rule such as the one proposed in this thread has a greater effect on the competition as a whole; But an emulator ban would have the same effect.

My reasoning is that if we think we're ready to distrust the emulator users as a whole, we might as well make consoles and official re-releases (for the most part) be the only acceptable way of competing. It would get rid of all possible distrust in emulators that there is.

Personally, I would prefer keeping the current rules intact, because it keeps an even competetive field, over this new rule. I would even go as far to say that an updated proof system would be an even better solution.

Yet if we're arguing that emulators bring advantages that, I assume TSC has known for at least a couple years, and change it now, then getting rid of single emulators that are known to do such things would be the most logical conclusion. Yes some people will be forced out of their comfort zone, some people might not want to actually use console, but that's not what should be relevant.

What should be relevant is that there are emulators out there that only rely on processing power to slow the game down, which would already be covered by the overall rule stated earlier. Now If we don't trust people to at least not abuse savestates in their runs, then we should ban all emulators, no exceptions.

The trust system here is at risk. If you're willing to give up some of it, it's inevitable that all of it is questionable. However if we ban emulators, it means that we at least trust people to be legitimate on their consoles. If we target-ban emulators, then we can get rid of the variable that is "TASing" with more extensive tools than just savestates.

EDIT: By keeping the current rules I mean the rules before this topic.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Thorn on April 07, 2014, 09:58:17 PM
SDM: I've received complaints from several people about your posting style, and I'm inclined to agree. If you think somebody's attacking you personally, then as a former forum admin on two different sites you should have the sense to tell an admin instead of countering it. When I get zero complaints from you about others but get many from others about you, then I have to examine you, not them.

Way to spend your single post, btw.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Starlight_Glimmer on April 07, 2014, 10:41:49 PM
Well~ I guess that leaves me then.

Though I like what you said in the first half of the paragraph directed at me, the 2nd half is pretty unfair. since ive even made an anti bertin WR run and him and me are best friends. but I understand we all have different senses of humor; thus I understand if anyone was offended.

I kinda addressed it, and at the same time I for the most part dodged this when sdm, and don brought it up. (because its off topic.) this isn't about me. I full on plan to go back to that "special place" yall put me after this is done with.

but I also mentioned we all can agree that we love competition, and that's my only drive here, and I think the rule is very important to achieve this goal. Now since I don't know how much time I'll have left. I hope people keep pounding on and defending this rule, and because we all still trust in the trust system (at least those who understand tsc founding all the way back in the ole rolken days), this rule is perfect for us. before an all emulator ban. which for the final record: im against, IF this rule, (and because I believe in the foundation of tsc) it CAN fix this, without compromising the trust system.

~ sayonara, hedgehog

Edit to the thorn post: nah, I think your post is fair enough were I don't need to post a rebuttal. other then fairly new tsc members challenging sdm's stances. Im kinda bias cuz he seemed to be on my side. but I understand its kinda annoying for some one whose been around as long as sdm (actively or inactively) for a 1 year old member; or just a couple of years members, to tell sdm how it should be. back to what I said before ( angry ppl are the loudest lol)

edit3: I guess my point is saying... do you earnestly believe someone who is purposely tasing and sumbitting, knowing that they shouldnt, is gona stop because of an emulator ban? when they can just say lol console
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Thorn on April 07, 2014, 10:56:23 PM
^ By all means, please express your opinion to the fullest in your post. I know that my rant did take a shot directly at you, and honestly I'm glad to hear that you acknowledge the video was a joke you made that me and some others found in bad taste. I did phrase something poorly in my post; it's not necessarily you that I was a bit disgusted with, but more the idea that it was suddenly okay to let a bandodger slip by when there were other ways you could have gotten your message to us. It's the fact that bandodging is "okay" despite your past offenses that I'm disgusted with, not your points or that you did something to try to help the site. That said, since you've been here, you've been posting very reasonably and I'm in no rush to send you "back to that 'special place'", so please keep on keeping on. I've gotten my small grudge off of my chest and don't intend to hold anything against you while you make your point.

I do know that you care for TSC as a competitive platform even if we don't always see eye to eye. The same goes to SDM; I believe that he really does want to help with the things he said, even if I think much of it was uncalled for. I do hope he comes back and makes a clear post explaining his views without using other people for context. I just want such things expressed in a civil manner, and I needed to bring up two things that went wrong very quickly.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 08, 2014, 09:57:43 AM
That's former admin on 3 sites and current on another (WoW's my main competitive gig at the moment). But you had no way of knowing. (Well, a small chance. I did make a re-entry post about 5 months ago.)

Just FYI Thorn, ceteris paribus was totally relevant where I used it. I was referring to two situations regarding setup time and holding all else equal. :(

In seriousness though, I felt like nothing was going to be done, so I took several recent matters into my own hands. For that I apologize.

Rather than argue, I just want to reraise a rhetorical question I've stated before. It's really all there is left to discuss.

Emulation isn't taken at face value on this site anymore, and there are causes for this coming from two broad areas of the field: one where emulation is inaccurate but unnoticeable to the player (for which they would be trying to obey the rules in good faith but still break them nonetheless, all-the-while not even getting a call-out for it because no one knows about the issue), and the other where games are so old that some players seek a competitive edge by TAS-ing their stats and recording a passable video.

That lead us to the emulation thread which sparked up in Rules Revisions forum, where several of us expressed our views in the same manner as we did in here (complete with my bitchiness at weird remarks too), where we ultimately resolved on two choices: Either ban all emulation or require proof for emulated stats.

That means we have two options on the table which roughly attempt to accomplish the same goal. One sanction is far, far heavier than the other. Why not try the lighter sanction first before trying the heavier one? Just because we would implement the lighter rule first, doesn't mean an emulation ban is off the table entirely.

To say that we are intent on targeting emulation users when applying the proposed rule is completely accurate -- they are the only ones that need to be targeted in regard to the two issues in the paragraph above, since these complaints scope only the domain of emulation. But an emulation ban targets emulation users too, infact in a more profound way!

We could revisit the topic of banning emulation later. After all, there's a lot in valid support of that. But, I think an outright ban is a bit hasty considering there's a lighter sanction we can try first.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Luxray on April 08, 2014, 07:24:03 PM
The trust system is dead; People lie and this site needs to accomodate that we have integrity to uphold above all else.
Quote
We're not trying to stop "fake" or unobtainable stats here (Though that is always nice to do so). We're trying to catch goofs with inaccurate emulation (in the case of Wii), and prevent TASing in many forms (on the Genesis-era games).

This has to be the most misunderstood point about all this. It is the sole reason why this rule is being implemented and some people can't seem to understand that. As far as I'm concerned, that's a step in the right direction. The next step would be requiring proof on every platform, which would make this site uniformly valid. The issue that comes up with that is 10+ years of stats don't have proof. So we either start again, grandfather them in or reuqest proof else nuking. However that's a discussion for a later date when that issue becomes more pertinent.

Emulation Banning i'd be for as well since every mother and their pets can play the old Sonic games anywhere through the various reports. Obviously some games can't, but you can't win everything.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Diamond on April 09, 2014, 07:07:32 PM
I believe that nobody should really have to rely on emulators, to be honest; they should just play on console.
That's just my opinion, and it might be a bad one.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: InferSaime on April 09, 2014, 07:12:42 PM
Quote
We're not trying to stop "fake" or unobtainable stats here (Though that is always nice to do so). We're trying to catch goofs with inaccurate emulation (in the case of Wii), and prevent TASing in many forms (on the Genesis-era games).

Ok if you're trying that, then you could trust some emus like VBA.I'm most familiar with that emu out of any so I take that as an example. From my experience it is quite accurate, unlike dolphin. So my suggestion is doing this rule case-by-case, which don has said many times already. Imo Dolphin and ds emus and any emus that use a lot of processing power and that you need to a good computer for or are just inaccurate to begin with. Should be banned from competition which in the case of dolphin has been shown that it's inaccurate. And I guess for genesis era you could  state an emu that doesn't have TAS abilities. This way the casual competitor who gets a lot of greens or yellows doesn't have to bother to provide a video and can still use an emu.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: DarkPolarNight on April 09, 2014, 08:11:04 PM
Okay, I’ll start off by quoting myself here from page 2:

“Working out which emulators cause problems and implementing some kind of changes, with the identified emulators, may be a way forwards?”

I’ll elaborate this a bit more and make myself more clear......

Identify accurate emulators. Identify the emulators that aren’t.

The emulators that aren’t accurate? A straight ban, no exceptions. If we know that an emulator is inaccurate and suffers from frameskips/lag……then there’s no way that its legitimate for competition. Its too complicated of an issue to even consider exceptions.
 
By banning inaccurate emulators this addresses what the key issue is, in the first place, which is “inaccurate statistics submitted by timer mishaps caused from an inaccurate emulator”.

If we ban inaccurate emulators, going any further than this, such as requesting proof on ALL accurate emulators no longer addresses the issue of inaccurate submissions…..it does go into the issues regarding trust/catching BSers. This is entirely a different matter and should not be attempted to be addressed at the same time, when we need to focus on inaccurate submissions.

Therefore, my thoughts its that the rule should be removed, and with a bit of research and expertise from emulator users, ban the inaccurate emulators and we can move on from this.
Well, that’s my say/opinion on this, if it provides any constructive use.

Title: Re: Dumb rules regarding emulators
Post by: Bilan on April 09, 2014, 08:13:39 PM
I KNOW I SAID I ONLY GOT ONE OBLIGATORY SHITPOST BUT I THINK THIS WHOLE IDEA IS DUMB ANYWAY SO HERE YOU CAN HAVE ANOTHER.

For the amount of MAYBE POSSIBLE POTENTIAL cheatering you stop with this crock of shit proof enforcement, you are probably turning away way more actual legit competitors because what's the point in contributing to a dying competition site when it's so much hassle.

Also exactly what is stopping anyone from obtaining stats with an emulator and just saying they did them on console because you have no way to prove otherwise and it is approximately 100% less fucking hassle than recording the entire process and also if you aren't even allowed to use savestates you might as well just pretend you did it on console anyway because there was absolutely no difference between what you did on the emulator and what is possible on console. Except use a keyboard I guess. Unless you have a PC gamepad. THE POSSIBILITIES ARE NEVER ENDING.

I GUESS YOU BETTER START REQUIRING PROOF FOR 100% OF STATS FROM THIS POINT ON OR THE WHOLE SITE IS DOOMED TO GIANT PILES OF CHEATERY. IT'LL BE BLACKJACK AND HOOKERS BEFORE YOU KNOW IT.

(http://i.imgur.com/qSejZ2q.jpg)
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: SpinDashMaster on April 09, 2014, 11:50:00 PM
What if I told you I was a black hooker named Jack?

YOURE TOO LATE SON
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: CriticalCyd on April 10, 2014, 04:45:04 AM
I'm very much on the side of the case by case rules for emulators. Since this rule is primarily for preventing accidental BS because of emulation failure I feel the proof requirement rule for any and all emulators is way too widespread, inconveniencing the use of emulators that have been proven to be accurate. As such I feel that the rule should only target emulators that have been proven to be inaccurate and since we'd only be targetting a few specific emulators I'd say an outright ban of those emulators is a much more realistic possibility and in my opinion the better option.

As for grandfathering old stats, well I'm usually the type of person that thinks "Don't punish people for breaking future rules", but in this case it concerns possibly unobtainable stats. As a result I think at least the records or the top x stats on charts that may be dealing with an inaccurate emulator should be investigated. Of course if there's an issue with the stat there should be no big consequences for the person who got it, but the stat itself should be removed.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Inuyasha on April 10, 2014, 05:13:22 AM
Why the hell are you guys continually dragging "emulator accuracy" into this argument?  It has nothing to do with this rule whatsoever, and is in fact missing the entire goddamn point of the rule!

If someone plays a game on Regen on a computer slightly overburdened such that Regen runs at 55 fps, thus giving them a reaction time advantage, does that make the emulator "inaccurate"?  Fuck no.  If you said yes to that, then essentially you'd have to ban all emulators because all of them can be inaccurate with a poor enough setup.  As far as I'm aware, the rule is in place to help enforce that the game is actually running at the proper pace -- you know, something that's been in the rules for ages, but hasn't been able to be properly enforced.

The issue with Dolphin is not that it's inaccurate in this specific case.  It's doing exactly what the hardware would do if it ever lagged in that exact place.  The game, for whatever terrible reason, decided to time a prompt to a voice sample ending, which isn't affected by lag.  Calling the emulator inaccurate for doing exactly what it's told is complete nonsense.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: TimpZ on April 10, 2014, 02:53:47 PM
I believe I'm mostly responsible for this whole endless discussion since I created the Gens/Bizhawk thread earlier this year. The reason I made that topic was because the past year I had seen that pretty much every single cheater I came across used emulators in some way, specifically emulators with TASing functions (though that might just be because people who lie about non-excellent stats don't get caught as much). For every single case we had to gather a few "experts" to scrutinisingly and painstakingly analyze every bit of whatever videos there was in order to determine how likely it was that it was unjustly made.

After a lengthy discussion, we came to a democratic agreement that requiring videos in some form for emulators would be the best solution for the time being since recording them is a very small inconvenience but provides a better sense of security in the legitimacy in the site. Lack of this might encourage more stat-submitting in the short term and I admit I'm personally not the 690-stats-in-69-days type but I really believe it will hurt the site as time goes on. Quality over quantity. Twin Galaxies has a very different system than ours but I do think that there's a few things we can learn from them. First off even having to send a recorded VHS tape by mail to another continent doesn't stop people from competing. Secondly they have a single "verifier" per console who doesn't know anything about half the games he's verifying and thus potentially lets many cheats through, but the proof is not publically available and therefore most people have no faith in their stats. This is part of their demise.

What I would really like is for proof on this site to become more standardised to a list of emulators and video formats. This has a bunch of advantages to proof-calling and generally making sure that the emulation is adequate. To be completely honest, I wouldn't actually mind if people used TASing emulators at all if they recorded and submitted input files, since they're dead-beat easy to analyse. To use Genesis as the example, there's a few really good emulators and a number of terrible ones. Fusion is alright, but at least has a recording function. Gens11b is also alright and Gens+ is pretty bad, but they have excellent input recording features. Regen is really good AND has an avi recording function, wonderful! This covers the whole spectrum of computers today and these are all distinct emulators that with a decent quality recording could be distinguished between. This provides a few benefits if we say that Gens runs requires input files for example. If someone used gens but said they used fusion and submitted a YT video (to avoid having their L+R's visible or whatever), we could call them out. If someone said they used console but have a few suspicious stats we could ask for a photo of their setup like this:

(http://i.imgur.com/7qqV5K6.png)

Banning specific emulators is not unknown to the speedrunning community, for example Project 64 2.0 is banned on SRL. But in general, emulators have advantages compared to console speedrunning. Setup between attempts is non-existent and switching from left to right can consistently be done frame perfect. Therefore imposing a small inconvenience on it to encourage the use of consoles to me seems like a good start. Of course you could argue to ban all emulators, but I haven't seen anything in the discussions so far that would sway me from my opinion. First off it would kill all competition for a few games here, secondly it provides an excellent alternative, at least for beginners that are just starting to try out this whole "competitive gaming" business which is growing every day.

Some say this is against the spirit of TSC. VIVA LA REVOLUCIÓN! No government or entity can start out perfectly nor stay perfect for all eternity. Technology changes society and changes need to be made to accomodate the new demands of tomorrow. I don't see how this would be different for The Sonic Centre.

Yes I wrote centre. Sue me.
Title: Re: New rules regarding emulators
Post by: Thorn on April 10, 2014, 06:27:24 PM
Tempbans have been delivered to those who broke the rules. Attacks/arguments directed at specific people have been edited out of posts. Feel free to continue discussion in a civil manner.