Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun


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Do you want to see a TAS of Sonic 3D Blast?

Yes!
18 (64.3%)
I'd probably watch it
5 (17.9%)
Eh
1 (3.6%)
No
4 (14.3%)

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Offline Comicalflop

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Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« on: May 01, 2007, 06:53:38 PM »
Pretty much most if not all of the emultable Sonic games already have a TAS. (For those that don't know, a TAS is a Tool Assisted Speedrun, using an emulator with slowdown and savestates. See TASvideos.org for details.)
The one main Sonic Genesis title remaining is for Sonic Blast 3D. So, I decided to start one. In no way is it THE best of the sonic games, but it's one of the few that has not been done yet, and I think deserves to have one.

I'd probably call myself a very inexperienced Sonic player. I never owned a system that has sonic games, and not even played any Sonic games in any form, on someone else's system or on emulator. This generally is not a problem for me, I'm very adept at TASing games I've never played/heard of before. But I have watched many Sonic speedruns and TASes, so at least I'm familiar with what sonic speedrunning looks like.

Anyway, so far I have Green Grove Zone 1 completed. This was an initial stab, and (read below) is not the final version.

Each time a stage is completed, I will make a new post listing the time and video (downloadable AVI and youtube), and all videos will be compiled here on the first page as well:

Green Grove 1: AVI / youtube In-game time: 0:47 (beats WR by 4 seconds)
Green Grove 1 improved: AVI / youtube (beats WR by 6 seconds)
Green Grove Zone 1 improved again: AVI / youtube (beats the WR by 8 seconds)

I have the vids of 3D Blast to use as reference and know where I'm going (i.e. route.) (I can't view vv2 or ss3, unfortunately. Codec problem.) With these vids, I know where to go and what to do, and from them I can deduce route changes and optimizations. (more so optimizations.)

I just proved my own first attempt to not be 100% optimal, based on my discoveries below. Therefore, I will be restarting.

These things I have found:
All "slope" effects increase/decrease based on the steepness of the slope. Going down steeper slopes gives higher speeds, going uphill negates speed. (yeah, this was kind of obvious. but it had to be tested thoroughly.)

I use the term 'frames', which is a fraction of a second. there are 60 frames in a second.
I also use a number for speed, this is based off of a memory address within the game itself.

-Max running speed takes 36-37 frames to get to from a complete stop. This is about a little more than half a second.
-Max running speed: 76-79 (varies).
-Speed when jumping at max running speed: 77-79
-Rolling/running down slopes speed: 79-82 (increases with steeper slopes, although sometimes sonic is left running in mid air if going too fast.)
-Jumping on a down slope, when rolling/running at max speed: 100+ slight boost
-Jumping before max speed is reached is slower than running to reach max speed.
-Running uphills: 75-79 (based on steepness. Jumping and rolling up hills is to be avoided entirely. Only run or spindash up hills.)
-"optimal" spindash: 119 speed, slowly decreases by 1 over time (more so when going up hills) If used properly on straights, they can maintain a higher than max running speed for a very long time.
(note: A and C are the same button in this game, alternating A and C to charge up faster does not work.)
-from a standstill, an optimal spindash takes 16 frames.
-spindashing down slope jump speed: 127! boost
-You can bounce into walls, and this will rebound you, keeping the same speed with which you hit the wall. You have to let go of direction buttons as you do this, or else the game will be tricked into considering it a stop of momentum and you will almost immediately stop moving.
-When at max speed, if you bounce off of an item or enemy, you do not lose or gain any speed.
-Turning causes a centripetal affect, in that the faster you turn, the more you slide, and your desired speed decreases. It is best to never switch immediately from one direction to another without first using the diagonals to 'ease' your way to your desired direction. This lessens the decrease in speed the most.
-When rolling, your speed stays at the value your maximum speed is for 10 frames (1/6th of a second) and then gradually decreases.

---------------------------------------------------------
How much do people want to see a TAS of this game? The game itself sucked and was not good in 3D terms, but watching it speedrunned looks ways better than actually playing it IMO, and I'm positive that I can save time on every single WR there is is, based on how my sub-optimal green grove is still 4 seconds faster.

If anyone wants to offer comments, suggestions, questions, feel free to do so.
« Last Edit: August 04, 2007, 10:38:55 AM by Comicalflop »

Offline douglas

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2007, 07:12:25 PM »
I'd definitely be interested in a TAS; aside from just liking to watch them it might give me the motivation to have another stab at it :)
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Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2007, 07:19:01 PM »
What doug said, if you made it I would watch it, I <3 this game
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #3 on: May 02, 2007, 12:59:04 AM »
Alrighty, I love feedback! Especially those of the "I'd love to see it" vibes, they always give me motivation and let me know I'm not wasting my time for nothing.

I'm at the 3rd robot in redoing, and so far about 1/3rd of a second saved. (I plan to have more time saved in later sections... I've only got the first 10 seconds done out of 47, to compare.) The 119 speed of spindashes is really helpful, haven't yet come to a downhill where I can do the jump boost, but I should probably think of really good ways to completely cut momentum to a stop, in order to make the collection of Flickies that much easier/faster.

douglas: I love it when my TASes become benchmarks for speedrunners. I'm sure with the "techniques" I listed that there's stuff that a speedrunner like yourself can learn from, as well as how I handle the future levels strategy wise; and finding the theoretical limits for lowest in-game timer possible, and then you practice to see how close you can reach that.

Request: can someone upload the vv2 and ss3 videos to youtube so that I can view/download them?
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 05:25:00 AM by Comicalflop »

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #4 on: May 02, 2007, 06:56:20 AM »
I dont have them sadly, but Im sure atleast someone round here will
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #5 on: May 02, 2007, 10:54:01 AM »
Bummer. Fortunately, vv2/ss3 is still a good while away, especially since I discovered *how* to make the game optimal, knowing Sonic's valued speed (a sonicometer if you will.) So levels should take longer, instead of the ~1 day to complete gg1.

...oh, I shit you not, I just found the video for vv2 on youtube. what are the odds? nvm, that problem solved! (now just to find ss3.)

Ok, so now I have a biggie question that I'm going to throw out there; What is the best way to stop moving in this game when at high speeds, i.e. for robot hitting and Flickie collecting? I'm going to ~75% of the time in this TAS collect the Flickie and spindash to the next destination, something that requires too much precision/luck/timing for a speedrun IMO. Are there any animation cancellations that can pretty much set sonic's speed to zero? anything with a short jump? rolling? I'm going to be looking into that answer myself, but if anyone has suggestions/good answer that'd be appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 02, 2007, 12:14:09 PM by Comicalflop »

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #6 on: May 02, 2007, 12:21:09 PM »
Im pretty sure I used to roll a little in advance, then jump as I hit the robot, sometimes that can nab the flicky

Then again I could just be remembering wrongly, but that might be something to try o:
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #7 on: May 02, 2007, 01:42:46 PM »
I think that's mostly what SprintGod is doing, save for the times when he makes mistakes and that jump gives him acceleration away from the Flickie. (A risky move to be sure, it can waste 1-3 seconds if done incorrectly and Sonic is sent sailing.)

I was more thinking of how to stop very quickly in order to set up a spindash. From what I've looked at, it would appear decelerating very early, or some form of a tiny little jump to negate  Sonic's speed, especially since jumps can make you go out of 'spindash' or 'rolling' mode.

OT, but it would appear I have 'notify of replies' selected, even in my profile settings to receive emails from topics I have selected for notification, but not a peep. Is this normal?

Update: 50% robots killed, 18 in-game seconds played, 1 second saved so far.
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 12:20:55 AM by Comicalflop »

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #8 on: May 04, 2007, 07:48:22 AM »
o: sounds sweet

...wait

You mean 18 seconds up to the first flicky ring thing in GG1?

Christ, I think my best was 21 or 22.
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #9 on: May 04, 2007, 07:35:09 PM »
How is it timed? I need to find a way to compare my progress with Sprint's, because when I did an initial calculation I was 18 seconds, he was 19. which makes no sense, I saved 67 frames (a little over 1 second) compared to my old WIP, which I knew to be faster than SG's.

What visual trigger did you get 21/22 seconds? when Sonic passes through the hole? when he first touches the ring and flips around it?
« Last Edit: May 04, 2007, 08:51:31 PM by Comicalflop »

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #10 on: May 05, 2007, 06:40:28 AM »
I used to pause as Sonic was stood above the hole, just before he dropped
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #11 on: May 05, 2007, 12:48:20 PM »
How about when you start? What reference do you use/the game uses to begin the timer?

Offline Aere Alouette

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #12 on: May 06, 2007, 12:05:52 AM »
Question: For your speedruns, I'm curious: Do you use the background music as a form of time measurement during the run?

By the way, please make a S3DB speedrun. I really want new challengers and heights.
Sonic 3D Blast Champion (So many times I can't count.)

Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #13 on: May 06, 2007, 01:58:50 AM »
Well, When comparing my current work to previous ones, I have a frame counter, that lists the total number of frames that I've recorded so far. (60 frames = 1 second.) So I hit robot #6 at frame 2709, I look at my old AVI and it hits that robot at 2802, I know I am 93 frames ahead, or roughly 1.5 seconds. When comparing to SG's AVI's, I don't really use music, I use a 'ballpark' calculation by timing the seconds. I have my screen pause at a point of reference- like the first frame I destroy a robot- and I note how many seconds have passed in SG's video at that point of time, from the beginning.

It's a little complicated, but when I'm comparing against my own work it is very easy, but comparing against SG is doable, but not as accurate. Suffice to say that once I finish a level I don't need SG's video anymore, since I'd have a faster AVI of my own TAS of the stage.

I'm glad that you're really looking forward to it, audience anticipation is always a main motivation for me.

Edit: new 'game physics' rule: rolling does have some usefulness (unfortunately, only for my TAS where I can watch my real speed in slowdown). It can be used to maintain the maximum speed for a little while.

When Sonic is at max speed, his speed value oscillates between 76 and 79. When you start rolling on a flat surface however, his rolling speed for 10 frames (1/6th of a second) stays at that speed. So I can wait for the speed to oscillate up to 79, and hold B, and for 10 frames his speed will stay at 79. after 10 frames the speed will start to slow down a little bit, by 1 per 10ish frames.

Edit Edit: I just checked, and VLC player has a frame advance feature that work s with AVIs. If I so desired, I can find exactly how many frames faster I am compared to SG, because 60 frame advances = 1 second passed in his video. So it'd take a while, but now i can make time comparisons to the speedrun vids with my own work.

However, in the end it does not matter, since it shows the in-game time anyways, and since I know I'm going to be faster anyways I usually don't have to check if speedwise I am doing faster than SG; I did my v1 TAS 4 seconds faster without making any speed comparisons.

Update: wearing the speed shoes, hit robot #8, and so far 1 and 5/6ths of a second saved, so sub-45 in-game timer is a definite. Possibly sub 43? Fingers crossed!

Edit: just found another quirk of the game, when wearing speed shoes (need to test without) when you charge a spindash, and jump off a slope you get a 127 speed boost, when I landed (speed shoes effect still in place) and running normally, my 127 speed boost is still there, and remained at that number, not oscillating until I turned direction; this applies to going up hill, so uphill slopes do not slow down this boost. Pretty useful I'd say, I'll look more into it and see if it can be done without speed shoes, or if it's possible to pull off in real time.
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 10:59:20 AM by Comicalflop »

Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #14 on: May 07, 2007, 04:01:05 PM »
Green Grove Zone 1 improved is done!

AVI / youtube

Timer: 0:45

6 seconds faster than WR, 2 in game seconds faster than my old attempt, 2.683 real seconds faster than my old attempt.

Lots of new stuff was added to keep Sonic's oscillating speed at a maximum. I'm pretty sure that now I have all mechanics figured out, and that each level can be taken to the maximum limit, down to the very last pixel.

Enjoy!
« Last Edit: May 07, 2007, 04:56:33 PM by Comicalflop »

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2007, 05:53:00 PM »
My impulses tell me to watch it but I will save myself and wait for the whole thing :o
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2007, 03:26:45 AM »
The whole thing is going to take a while, especially since I'm also doing Ocarina of Time (sub 1:50 goal!), Mario Kart 64, and am a robotics head counselor this summer, and then need to pick up the pace of my studies next year. So I'd say go ahead and watch it now.

Had these zones taken 1 day a piece like my first version of GG1, then by all means yes you could've easily waited. As it is now with how long it takes to make them; I think you'll enjoy what I have more than anxiously waiting for months.

Offline douglas

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2007, 03:34:38 AM »
Sweetness :)  Also your Mario Kart 64 runs are hilarious, I hadn't seen those bugs before.
This topic has now been officially won by me.  Never mind, you might do better next time!
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2007, 12:41:43 PM »
Nitsuja Found a route strat that, unoptimized, gets the timer down to 0:44. So redoing again, but thankfully not too much has to be redone, only from the speedshoes.

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2007, 12:51:00 PM »
Good old nitsuja X)
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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #20 on: July 07, 2007, 10:16:01 PM »
For those wondering what happened with this run, I was just about to go ahead and finish improving GG1 for the 2nd time 3 weeks ago when my laptop was confiscated (I currently have it back.) I might occasionally work on this from time to time, so eventually it will be done; but I won't ever drop it, so no worries there.

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #21 on: August 04, 2007, 08:56:41 AM »
Yo! What's up with the site going kaputszville for the past few weeks? I wasn't able to show you all this!

Green grove Zone 1 redone for the last time: 0:43 (AVI)

Enjoy! Next up is GGz2, but I don't know if there's any route changes that could save time, but fortunately I have hi-def maps to plan out.

Edit: speaking of which, can those maps be added to the site? (they were made by Upthorn.)
« Last Edit: August 04, 2007, 10:39:20 AM by Comicalflop »

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #22 on: August 04, 2007, 10:11:22 AM »
0:43!? Jesus Christ thats awesome
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Offline Comicalflop

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #23 on: September 09, 2007, 08:41:15 PM »
Just letting everyone know that I hate this game and won't be playing it anymore. A friend of mine might be taking it up to replace me, if so I will direct him here so that he (or myself) can post videos.

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #24 on: September 09, 2007, 08:43:00 PM »
:(

Glad to hear this might still be continued though
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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #25 on: September 09, 2007, 08:48:22 PM »
Can't say I'm surprised, what with your workload.

Is your friend's name Sprint?!

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #26 on: September 09, 2007, 08:52:25 PM »
1) my workload is limited to only Mischief Makers at the moment. But yeah, it had to go, I had no more motivation for it.
2) nope, excellent guess though

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #27 on: September 09, 2007, 09:57:14 PM »
Bah.  There's a second page?  And you stopped it?  Aw...  I was hoping to see a run.

And I'd LOVE to see a Mischief Makers TAS.  I never did get a lot of Ss...
Hi

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Re: Sonic 3D Blast Tool Assisted Speedrun
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2007, 09:00:17 AM »
Well, Here is a youtube link for the first 5 stages. I redid 1-03 to be 0.25" faster, and the 5th stage is 0.20" faster, although I'm redoing that also to try and get a better time. (I had reached as far as 2-04, but am redoing a few stages.)

It's going to be very interesting because I am beating the previous TAS's times by huge amounts, and have discovered a whole slew of new and awesome stuff (like going through walls).

As opposed to 3D blast, where I only made a few small discoveries, the biggest being if you jump off a hill at speed of 100 or higher (attainable with speed shoes by spin dashing) and keep going straight, your speed never goes below 127, even up steep slopes.

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