Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities


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Offline Thorn

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[15:30] <~SonicAD> so Thorn >_>
[15:30] <~SonicAD> what do we have in the way of chart possibilities <_<

Well, we should probably check on the prequel first...

In any case, here's notes on the Wii version of this game. I don't know of anybody on TSC that has the DS version, though, so charts might not even be necessary. :P There's a few points of possible debate in these chart suggestions, so if you have the game, voice your opinion.

EDIT: Struck out line due to the next post.



NO TOTALS - TIMES/SCORES ARE NOT PROPORTIONAL BETWEEN EVENTS
Any character (including Mii) for all events - no division splitting
All times are in XX:XX:XXX format (down to milliseconds)

Margin of victory scores should be submitted as Player Score | Opponent Score, with TSC calculating margin of victory and sorting by largest margins are best. In the event of a tie, either highest player score wins or it's just a tie. This much is up to GerbilSoft: it won't rape the competition horribly either way.

Downhill - Time
Giant Slalom - Time
Individual Large Hill - Score (decipoints)
Team Large Hill - Score (decipoints)
Moguls - Score (centipoints)
Ski Cross - Time
Halfpipe - Score (millipoints)
Snowboard Cross - Time
Speed Skating 500m - Time
Short Track 1000m - Time
Short Track Relay - Time
Figure Skating (Swan Lake) - Score (millipoints)
Figure Skating (Skater's Waltz) - Score (millipoints)
Figure Skating (Fantaisie Impromptu) - Score (millipoints)
Figure Skating (Ave Maria) - Score (millipoints)
Figure Skating (Spring) - Score (millipoints)
Figure Skating (Waltz of the Flowers) - Score (millipoints)
Skeleton - Time
Bobsleigh - Time
Ice Hockey - Score (margin of victory)
Curling  - Score (margin of victory)
==============================
Dream Alpine Individual - Time
Dream Ski Jumping Individual - Score (whole numbers)
Dream Ski Cross Individual - Time
Dream Snowboard Cross Individual - Time
Dream Short Track - Time
Dream Figure Skating (Mario World) - Score (deciscore)
Dream Figure Skating (Sonic World) - Score (deciscore)
Dream Bobsleigh - Time
Dream Ice Hockey - Score (margin of victory)
Dream Curling (6 Frames) - Score (whole numbers)
Dream Snowball Fight - Score (margin of victory)
Dream Gliding - Score (margin of victory)

Not being charted: Any event's "Team" mode. While allies are generally helpful (or at least not incompetent) in most margin of victory events, their intelligence in all of the racing events seem to be incredibly random, leaving only Dream Gliding Team, which plays like Dream Gliding Individual only with four opponents to target instead of three.

Rules
-----
In team events, you must control teammates whenever possible.
On events that allow either Individual or Team play, Individual play must be used.
Party games and rival battles may not be used for submissions.
The default settings must be used for all events except Dream Curling.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2010, 11:07:06 PM by Thorn »
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #1 on: October 24, 2009, 04:27:32 PM »
Oi, Cruizer, FKE and I have the DS version ok. >_>

Could probably help with charts for that eventually.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #2 on: October 24, 2009, 09:07:18 PM »
DS Charts seem feasible. Here are the events and what it saves (if it saves at all):
(dream events in green)

EDIT: Okay. I've properly ordered these events and the division would be "Anyone"



Times:
Alpine Skiing GS
Nordic Combined
Cross Country
Speed Skating 500m
Short Track 500m
Snowboard Cross
Bobsleigh
Skeleton
Biathlon
Luge
Ski Cross Racing
Supersonic Downhill
Intense Short Track
Extreme Snowboarding
Blazing Bobsleigh

All times in XX' XX" XXX format


Scores:

Moguls
Ski Jumping
Figure Skating (The Nutcracker)
Figure Skating (Carmen)
Figure Skating (Die Fledermaus)
Rocket Ski Jumping
The preceeding have milliscore values (i.e. XXXX.XXX pts)

Ski Shooting
Deluxe Halfpipe
Ultimate Figure Skating (Mario Medley)
Ultimate Figure Skating (Sonic Medley)
Ultimate Figure Skating (Mario & Sonic Medley)
Curling Bowling

The preeding have Positve (and 0) Integer Values (i.e. XXXX pts)

Rules:
Single Player mode may only be used.
Party Games may not be use to obtain stats.



I beleive these charts would also have to have no totals as times/scores are far from being nearby/proportional. Also it would be foolish to have divisions for every single character. It'll be long and uncared-for charts like SBK if it were, so Anyone would be wise.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2010, 01:41:37 AM by Luxray »
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2009, 12:42:23 AM »
So i looked into it more and the minigames can be put into their own chart. Each of them are countdown timers and each character has their own minigame. They are as follows:



Sparkleton:
Luigi
Yoshi
Shadow

Frostown:
Peach
Amy
Tails

Polastaits:
Knuckles
Donkey Kong

Cubyrinth:
Silver
Vector
Waluigi

Icepeak:
Blaze
Daisy

Blizland:
Wario



All of these are 2 digit seconds format.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 05:28:40 AM by Luxray »
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Offline Taillow

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2009, 01:37:02 AM »
I see no point in having seperate charts for semifinal and final.  There really isn't any difference between them.  Also, have we even done any sort of game where we have a "score vs. score/highest score wins" in the game?
Hi

Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2009, 05:50:34 AM »
The score vs. score charts don't seem to be good :/

First off how would we rank them? Sort by Top Player score then to solve ties Opponent score?
Then there's the issue on how this would be added to the total charts (if there are any at all).

And yes the semi-final/final thing is just redundant. Even in the Summer Olympics version there was hardly a difference (other than character) to it.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #6 on: November 08, 2009, 05:27:55 AM »
Another issue i have realised is the computer's difficulty. I'm not entirely sure about the Wii's version, perhaps Thorn could enlighten us about this, but the DS version has numerous events in which you actions can be affected by the computer's actions. For example in Snowboard Cross a computer player may bump into you causing you to mess up your time. But it may also help you like, for instance, being in your opponent's slipstream and increasing your sprint gauge in Cross Country/Biathalon.

My suggestion would be to have it on the hardest difficulty due to me having all my stats on hard >.>, plus it makes competitors strive for faster and better times so they can win against the computer.
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 06:32:11 AM by Luxray »
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Offline Thorn

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #7 on: November 08, 2009, 12:42:11 PM »
Another issue i have realised is the computer's difficulty. I'm not entirely sure about the Wii's version, perhaps Thorn could enlighten us about this, but the DS version has numerous events in which you actions can be affected by the computer's actions. For example in Snowboard Cross a computer player may bump into you causing you to mess up your time. But it may also help you like, for instance, being in your opponent's slipstream and increasing your sprint gauge in Cross Country/Biathalon.


Have we met?

Also I see Sonic the Fighters crying in the corner, and it's not because we've forgotten his localized name. Knuckles Chaotix and Sonic Battle are consoling him, as both Sonic Riders games and Sonic R cut themselves. The random attack patterns in bosses from newer games are causing no end of grief for...

...okay, that's getting out of hand. But there's *lots* of games where an AI opponent or a boss can screw you over by changing its movements, and we track those.



My suggestion would be to have it on the hardest difficulty due to me having all my stats on hard >.>, plus it makes competitors strive for faster and better times so they can win against the computer.

Whenever there's multiple ways to play, the usual rules here are to use default settings (as in Sonic the Fighters), or to allow anything (like in Sonic R). Forcing everybody to use the hardest rubber-band AI is essentially forcing everybody to randomly be pwned by items and overtaken. In hindsight, I should change the rules on "any settings" I'd established earlier for the Wii version, but I'm still torn over deliberately leaving out some lane configurations in Dream Curling just because the default setting plays a shorter game.

If you want to talk about difficulty, consider that you and Taillow both wanted Semifinals and Finals to be merged into one. I've generally found the second match to have more aggressive AI, although once you learn the event, you can still walk all over them and not notice the difference. I'm personally okay with merging them, though.



The score vs. score charts don't seem to be good :/

First off how would we rank them? Sort by Top Player score then to solve ties Opponent score?

* - These events have two teams playing simultaneously in a score competition. Theoretically score charts could be made based on margin of victory, but TSC's always been scared of charts where the player has to do basic subtraction to submit.

I'm unsure of how to work this myself, but it's not broken like Sonic Unleashed 360/PS3 Night scores, so it seems silly to throw four Wii events away before at least attempting to find a way to rank them. I am against just taking the player's score, though, since any idiot can play all offense and ignore defense.



Then there's the issue on how this would be added to the total charts (if there are any at all).

NO TOTALS - TIMES/SCORES ARE NOT PROPORTIONAL BETWEEN EVENTS

You could argue that scoring is rarely exactly the same between levels: I think only Sonic Rush Adventure has such a scoring system. But it's never differed quite like this. Time-wise, there are two events in the Wii version where the timer actually counts three or four times faster than normal to simulate a larger track without making you waggle your way down long straights. You've already mentioned that the AI can interfere drastically in some events and not at all in others. Score-wise, you could be the best Moguls player out there, but the fact that the score caps somewhere in the vicinity of 30 points means that somebody who's marginally better than you at Large Hill (which allows over 300 points) would take the Total chart with no effort.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #8 on: November 08, 2009, 07:53:35 PM »
...okay, that's getting out of hand. But there's *lots* of games where an AI opponent or a boss can screw you over by changing its movements, and we track those.

Okay point taken there.



Quote
Whenever there's multiple ways to play, the usual rules here are to use default settings (as in Sonic the Fighters), or to allow anything (like in Sonic R). Forcing everybody to use the hardest rubber-band AI is essentially forcing everybody to randomly be pwned by items and overtaken. In hindsight, I should change the rules on "any settings" I'd established earlier for the Wii version, but I'm still torn over deliberately leaving out some lane configurations in Dream Curling just because the default setting plays a shorter game.

With the DS there is a noticeable difference between Weak/Normal/Strong opponents yet, from what i can tell, the 1st round/Finals don't seem to make a drastic effect (other than turn placement which -can- make all the difference). However, majority of the levels have the 4 1v1 Matches are the ones I am against for the DS charts (Dream/Ice Hockey and Curling)

Quote
If you want to talk about difficulty, consider that you and Taillow both wanted Semifinals and Finals to be merged into one. I've generally found the second match to have more aggressive AI, although once you learn the event, you can still walk all over them and not notice the difference. I'm personally okay with merging them, though.

I've only noticed that in the Summer Olympics version.



Quote
The score vs. score charts don't seem to be good :/

First off how would we rank them? Sort by Top Player score then to solve ties Opponent score?

* - These events have two teams playing simultaneously in a score competition. Theoretically score charts could be made based on margin of victory, but TSC's always been scared of charts where the player has to do basic subtraction to submit.

I'm unsure of how to work this myself, but it's not broken like Sonic Unleashed 360/PS3 Night scores, so it seems silly to throw four Wii events away before at least attempting to find a way to rank them. I am against just taking the player's score, though, since any idiot can play all offense and ignore defense.

There's also the fact that someone's hard work can be undone by their opponent scoring, thus ruining their margin. I don't think these charts would work all that well.



Quote
Then there's the issue on how this would be added to the total charts (if there are any at all).

NO TOTALS - TIMES/SCORES ARE NOT PROPORTIONAL BETWEEN EVENTS

You could argue that scoring is rarely exactly the same between levels: I think only Sonic Rush Adventure has such a scoring system. But it's never differed quite like this. Time-wise, there are two events in the Wii version where the timer actually counts three or four times faster than normal to simulate a larger track without making you waggle your way down long straights. You've already mentioned that the AI can interfere drastically in some events and not at all in others. Score-wise, you could be the best Moguls player out there, but the fact that the score caps somewhere in the vicinity of 30 points means that somebody who's marginally better than you at Large Hill (which allows over 300 points) would take the Total chart with no effort.

Or even yet you could be losing to someone who has over 2000m in Rocket Ski Jumping (DS). Or better yet someone could have 11 minutes or so in Cross Country/Nordic Combined/Biathalon whereas you could be the best person at Speed Skating with sub-27 times but 20mins+ in those ski events. I have your reasoning and view with the total charts, but i'm keeping that option open until an argument comes along.
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Offline Thorn

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #9 on: November 08, 2009, 09:00:36 PM »
There's also the fact that someone's hard work can be undone by their opponent scoring, thus ruining their margin. I don't think these charts would work all that well.

...what? Isn't it your job to stop your opponent from scoring? If your opponent scores on you in Curling, it means you didn't do as well as could have been done, not that the AI is a cheating bastard. So yes, your margin should go down. Same goes for Ice Hockey. Gliding might be a bit fuzzy there, but given that you score five times as many points for shooting a computer player as you do for normal targets, and that shooting a computer player stops him/her from scoring for about eight seconds, I think you can still prevent scoring. In Snowball Fight, your teammates get beamed a lot less than you'd think, especially if you play like me and run right up to the dividing line between teams and grab items while chucking snowballs like mad.

The one concern that came to mind while writing this was that Dream Ice Hockey has an item that gives you more points per goal for a short time, and that it could be a game breaker if one person is lucky enough to get it repeatedly. I realized that it's essentially a Random Ring box, only with points, so unfortunately precedent means it should be legal.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #10 on: November 08, 2009, 11:45:45 PM »
There's also the fact that someone's hard work can be undone by their opponent scoring, thus ruining their margin. I don't think these charts would work all that well.

...what? Isn't it your job to stop your opponent from scoring? If your opponent scores on you in Curling, it means you didn't do as well as could have been done, not that the AI is a cheating bastard. So yes, your margin should go down. Same goes for Ice Hockey. Gliding might be a bit fuzzy there, but given that you score five times as many points for shooting a computer player as you do for normal targets, and that shooting a computer player stops him/her from scoring for about eight seconds, I think you can still prevent scoring. In Snowball Fight, your teammates get beamed a lot less than you'd think, especially if you play like me and run right up to the dividing line between teams and grab items while chucking snowballs like mad.

The one concern that came to mind while writing this was that Dream Ice Hockey has an item that gives you more points per goal for a short time, and that it could be a game breaker if one person is lucky enough to get it repeatedly. I realized that it's essentially a Random Ring box, only with points, so unfortunately precedent means it should be legal.

Thats the same issue with the DS Dream Ice Hockey. Goal Values are pretty much the same as ? Boxes (which have values 10/30/50). And if your opponent flukes a 50 from you and you only get 10s (which i've experienced many times in the Adventure Tours) it severly hurts your chances at getting a large margin. And of these charts are to be tracked then what i said earlier would be more rewarding to those who obtain larger scores. Plus how would BS protocol go about these?  The DS (and i assume the Wii) doesn't save these stat so some noobs might just make up some random stat.

Then there's the Snow Machine Fight on the DS. You fight 3 computers simultaneously, and try to get the most points. You earn a point by bringing an opponents' health to 0. How would we track this? There are 3 other opponents that are scoring at the same time as you. This chart would be almost impossible to track.
 
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Offline Luxray

Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2009, 11:05:39 PM »
« Last Edit: November 10, 2009, 11:17:14 PM by Luxray »
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Offline Zeupar

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #12 on: November 11, 2009, 02:43:38 AM »
If these charts are added, it should be done in such a way that they are fully compatible with The Mario Center, so you can check them and submit to them from that subsite, the new records, videos and guides appear on TMC's updates section, and awards are granted there as well.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2009, 02:49:48 AM »
If these charts are added, it should be done in such a way that they are fully compatible with The Mario Center, so you can check them and submit to them from that subsite, the new records, videos and guides appear on TMC's updates section, and the awards are granted there as well.

Well thats a good idea. But is it possible to have these games linked to both sites?
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #14 on: November 12, 2009, 09:47:10 PM »
Alright time to get off my lazy ass and hold up my end of the bargain. DS version chart possibilities incoming... dunno about totals.



Athletics
- Track
100m: Time (XX.XXX sec)
400m: Time (X:XX.XXX sec)
400m Hurdles: Time (X:XX.XXX sec)
- Field
Long Jump: Score (X.XXX m)
Triple Jump: Score (XX.XXX m)
Javelin Throw: Score (XXX.XXX m)
Hammer Throw: Score (XX.XXX m, max 99.999)

Aquatics
100m Freestyle: Time (XX:XX.XXX sec)
10m Platform: Score^ (XX.XX pts, max 30)

Gymnastics
Trampoline: Score* (XX.XX pts, maxes at 10)
Vault: Score* (XX.XXX pts, max 10)

Archery
Archery: Score* (XXX pts, max 120); Time? (XXX.XXX sec)

Shooting
Skeet: Score* (XX pts, max 40); Time? (XXX.XXX sec)

Cycling
Pursuit: Time** (X:XX.XXX sec)

Dream Events
Race: Time** (X:XX.XXX sec)
Basketball: Score?** (XXX pts, max 999)
Shooting: Score?**^ (XXX pts)
Long Jump: Score** (XXXX.XX m)


* = There's no way these can be competed in as there is a simple cap. Granted, archery's isn't quite as easy as the others, but still.
** = These events are versus between you and (an) opponent(s) in differing levels of weirdness. I'm lazy, so Cruizer can explain these in more detail if he wants.
? = Theoretically these could work but it's pretty unlikely.
^ = There's gotta be a cap on this since it isn't even on the WFC rankings, but I dunno what it is.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2009, 10:15:45 PM by Selphos »
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2009, 06:09:55 AM »
* Trampoline i actualy haven't gotten 10 yet. However Vault (and possibly skeet) is really easy to max.
** is the player vs. computer where they can affect your time (Pursuit not so much). We already have a discussion about this.
?: How are they unlikely to work? Its a simple chart. If its the fact that the scores aren't saved then it could be argued that there are other charts on the site that are proved. (Plus with basketball it obvious which scores are fake)
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2009, 06:46:08 PM »
Well, the thing about Archery and Shooting times is that it comes down to whoever can shoot the fastest, regardless of any sort of accuracy. They are recorded. I guess we could track that, I just thought it was weird. You have a point with basketball, though. Dream Shooting is just too out there for me, but we've gotten stranger things to work in the past. >_>

As for *s, I used to obsess over Trampoline so I got 10s pretty consistently. Archery is the only perfect emblem - in fact, the only emblem - I still lack.

**s you have a point with. I just wanted to show which events had that aspect.

I'm curious as to what Platform caps at. 50 maybe?
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #17 on: November 15, 2009, 09:31:42 PM »
Well, the thing about Archery and Shooting times is that it comes down to whoever can shoot the fastest, regardless of any sort of accuracy. They are recorded. I guess we could track that, I just thought it was weird. You have a point with basketball, though. Dream Shooting is just too out there for me, but we've gotten stranger things to work in the past. >_>

As for *s, I used to obsess over Trampoline so I got 10s pretty consistently. Archery is the only perfect emblem - in fact, the only emblem - I still lack.

**s you have a point with. I just wanted to show which events had that aspect.

I'm curious as to what Platform caps at. 50 maybe?

Which platform? Wii or DS? Wii has endless capabilities for scores. As for DS it should be about 30 (due to 3 cumulative rounds with 10 at max).
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #18 on: November 15, 2009, 10:15:23 PM »
I meant DS, and... probably should have remembered that. That'll teach me to guess at these things when I haven't played them in months.
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #19 on: November 15, 2009, 10:28:18 PM »
I meant DS, and... probably should have remembered that. That'll teach me to guess at these things when I haven't played them in months.

Lol. Well those seem to be all the charts. So what rules could we put in place to stop cheating and stuff?
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Offline Selphos

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #20 on: November 15, 2009, 10:30:19 PM »
I dunno, the game seems pretty straightforward to me. Did you have any ideas?
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #21 on: November 15, 2009, 10:46:00 PM »
I dunno, the game seems pretty straightforward to me. Did you have any ideas?

Well there's the fact that scores/times should be taken from the results screen. But there's also a section where your best times are saved.

Summer DS: Records -> Records -> [Select Event]
Saved Events: All Track/Field/Aquatics/Gymnastics, Skeet, Pursuit, Archery, Dream Race/BasketBall/Shooting/Long Jump.

Winter DS: Record Log -> Player Data -> View Play Data -> [Select Event]
Saved events: All Events Listed.

IDEA! Perhaps we could put in for Dream Race (summer) the fastest 1-Lap time? Or even we could put in for Ski Jumping the distance for the longest jump?

On with the Rules. What are we finalising for opponent difficulty? Just any difficulty at all?
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Winter Olympic Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2009, 06:54:06 AM »
Here's the screenshot of the titlescreen  that could be viewed for the Rankings page:




Also could we please have some admin input? Something regarding milliscore possibilities or even regarding the totals issue.
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Offline Alexthehedgehog

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #23 on: January 02, 2011, 10:35:14 AM »
my,god luxray you like took the whole topic to the next level. and how could games cut them selfs?
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Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #24 on: January 02, 2011, 07:03:13 PM »
This game should be on the Mario center. Since it's a Mario and Sonic. Mario's name is 1st.
I love to play Mario and Sonic games with a mix of Donkey Kong and Kirby games. Yes I'm a Nintendo nerd.

Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #25 on: January 02, 2011, 07:27:00 PM »
I have the DS version by the way.
I love to play Mario and Sonic games with a mix of Donkey Kong and Kirby games. Yes I'm a Nintendo nerd.

Offline Alexthehedgehog

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Re: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #26 on: January 03, 2011, 03:35:37 PM »
I had the Wii version
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Offline Luxray

Re: Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Winter Games - Chart Possibilities
« Reply #27 on: January 03, 2011, 10:25:49 PM »
Guys, this topic is no longer used for discussion for these games. It is highly unlikely that these games are going to be put on either TSC or TMC, so just stop replying.
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