SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ


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Offline Bilan

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SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« on: May 14, 2012, 10:27:20 PM »
HAVING JUST COMPLETED THIS IT IS NOT NEARLY AS SHITTY AS I EXPECTED.

For most stages, Times/Rings/Score as Sonic and T/S as Super Sonic is A-OK, including boss stages, though boss times should obviously be in the boss category (HI MY NAME IS THE S06 CHARTS).

Exceptions: Snowy Park Boss, Sky Fortress Act 1, Sky Fortress Boss as well as Death Egg Mk.II Act 1, should not have Rings/Score charts, as they each have an infinitely looping section with respawning rings.

Sky Fortress Act 1 is an autoscroller up until the boss, whether or not that is grounds for it to be included in the Times division is up to the powers that be!?

Special Stages should have Rings and Score, and possibly Time? Time would end up as HOLD BOOST TO WIN, but then again we tracked the SG3DS SS' for Time and consistency is good and all.
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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2012, 10:30:16 PM »
Everything sounds legit. Screw SF1 off it's damn near pointless to put it in the Time Charts. Also Times for SS's would not come down to hold boost to win, there's a trick or two you can shove in there. That pretty much only applies to the first one.

Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #2 on: May 14, 2012, 10:31:47 PM »
I am totally in agreement with that!

I'll knock up a charts draft once someone with magical power (Thorn) has read this and agreed it sounds good!
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Offline Thorn

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #3 on: May 14, 2012, 10:36:16 PM »
I have been reading it and agree with it since that's pretty much the conclusion I gathered quite a while ago; it was easy to think about charts after the Beta 8 leak. Of course, I won't have the game myself until XBLA updates on Wednesday, so I'm not adding anything before then because you're hesitant on Special Stage Times, and I'm not sure if one type of Special Stage chart deserves a Special category and the others don't (we can't mix time, ring, and score stats in one category).

...this is the part where another admin says "We're not having the same delay as Episode 1's charts!", puts them up before the game even hits XBLA, then gets to hear all of the whining at his sorting decisions.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2012, 10:42:48 PM by Thorn »
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Offline Thorn

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #4 on: May 14, 2012, 10:47:24 PM »
^ That's because myself, Zeupar, and SDM all had different opinions on the charts. SDM simply added the charts himself while we were discussing things after they'd been delayed for a bit (see my previous post for the immediate outcome).
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Offline Taillow

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2012, 10:52:25 PM »
Consider putting the special stage records in their respective time/ring/score categories then?

Now that I think of it this is kind of a new thing isn't it? >_>
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Offline Thorn

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2012, 10:59:24 PM »
I think the only sorting that would make any since is a simple Times/Rings/Scores split, even though it meshes together acts, bosses, special stages, and an unlockable that requires a different purchase (kind of like DLC from past games). If that were the case I could make charts right now, except for a few small things.
  • RPG said "Snowy Park"... I thought it was White Park?
  • Are we having Sky Fortress 1 times or not? I hear that there is a platforming section and a miniboss that both affect the pace of the level, while the rest autoscrolls. Nobody is bringing up the platforming, though, so I'm not sure if I'm wrong here.
  • Besides Special Stages, can you list any stages that don't have 50 rings for Super Sonic or that don't allow you to transform for any reason?
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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2012, 11:02:58 PM »
1. It is indeed White Park, don't listen to the crazy guy.
2. The platforming section is indeed also a part of the autoscroller, the boss though and whether it warrants a category is down to you guys, I don't know what you're bare minimum for Time charts are.
3. Not that I am aware of, rings aplenty and nothing stops you from going Super apart from Team Actions, which may actually end up being just as fast as Super Sonic due to it being so fast haha

Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #8 on: May 15, 2012, 01:06:33 AM »
I called it Snowy Park because I couldn't remember the name and you knew which level I meant anyway >_>

having done all the SS' now, Rings should definitely be the thing you do for the dedicated Special category; Times/Score I guess are up for debate. Seeing as you can boost, but still need to collect enough rings, which in later stages is fairly hard (FAK U SS7), it might be worth putting in Times. Scores, from what I can gather, like the levels seem to be mostly time bonus, with rings being worth 100 each; having said that, I got a time bonus of 0 for my SS7 completion, so I'm thinking that it's worth tracking T/R/S for the special stages after all.

Also, unlike Ep1, there are enough rings in every boss level to turn super, and being invincible could be pretty damn handy, so each boss should also have Sonic/Super Sonic divisions?

Also as cryptic said, the platforming parts of SF1 are part of the autoscroller, the only thing that isn't is the boss fight at the end.
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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #9 on: May 15, 2012, 01:54:17 AM »
I don't think the bosses should actually have SS charts on second thought. Getting every ring not only takes time, but all bosses (bar final) literally gain no advantage from being super, as they are all methodical "timing based windows of opportunity" style bosses, as opposed to "spam homing attacks till it dies" bosses, so you are literally hitting it optimally with normal Sonic, and it would be no faster as a result with SS.

Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #10 on: May 15, 2012, 06:10:20 PM »
For your consideration!

Times

Sylvania Castle Act 1 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 1 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 2 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 2 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 3 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 3 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Boss - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Boss - Super Sonic

White Park Act 1 - Sonic
White Park Act 1 - Super Sonic
White Park Act 2 - Sonic
White Park Act 2 - Super Sonic
White Park Act 3 - Sonic
White Park Act 3 - Super Sonic
White Park Boss - Sonic
White Park Boss - Super Sonic

Oil Desert Act 1 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 1 - Super Sonic
Oil Desert Act 2 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 2 - Super Sonic
Oil Desert Act 3 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 3 - Super Sonic
Oil Desert Boss - Sonic
Oil Desert Boss - Super Sonic

Sky Fortress Act 2 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 2 - Super Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 3 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 3 - Super Sonic
Sky Fortress Boss - Sonic
Sky Fortress Boss - Super Sonic

Death Egg mk.II Act 1 - Sonic
Death Egg mk.II Act 1 - Super Sonic
Death Egg mk.II Boss - Sonic
Death Egg mk.II Boss - Super Sonic

Special Stage 1 - Sonic
Special Stage 2 - Sonic
Special Stage 3 - Sonic
Special Stage 4 - Sonic
Special Stage 5 - Sonic
Special Stage 6 - Sonic
Special Stage 7 - Sonic

Scores

Sylvania Castle Act 1 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 1 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 2 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 2 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 3 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 3 - Super Sonic
Sylvania Castle Boss - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Boss - Super Sonic

White Park Act 1 - Sonic
White Park Act 1 - Super Sonic
White Park Act 2 - Sonic
White Park Act 2 - Super Sonic
White Park Act 3 - Sonic
White Park Act 3 - Super Sonic

Oil Desert Act 1 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 1 - Super Sonic
Oil Desert Act 2 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 2 - Super Sonic
Oil Desert Act 3 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 3 - Super Sonic
oil Desert Boss - Sonic
Oil Desert Boss - Super Sonic

Sky Fortress Act 1 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 1 - Super Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 2 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 2 - Super Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 3 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 3 - Super Sonic

Death Egg mk.II Boss - Sonic
Death Egg mk.II Boss - Super Sonic

Special Stage 1 - Sonic
Special Stage 2 - Sonic
Special Stage 3 - Sonic
Special Stage 4 - Sonic
Special Stage 5 - Sonic
Special Stage 6 - Sonic
Special Stage 7 - Sonic

Rings

Sylvania Castle Act 1 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 2 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Act 3 - Sonic
Sylvania Castle Boss - Sonic

White Park Act 1 - Sonic
White Park Act 2 - Sonic
White Park Act 3 - Sonic

Oil Desert Act 1 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 2 - Sonic
Oil Desert Act 3 - Sonic
Oil Desert Boss - Sonic

Sky Fortress Act 1 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 2 - Sonic
Sky Fortress Act 3 - Sonic

Death Egg mk.II Boss - Sonic

Special (Rings)

Special Stage 1 - Sonic
Special Stage 2 - Sonic
Special Stage 3 - Sonic
Special Stage 4 - Sonic
Special Stage 5 - Sonic
Special Stage 6 - Sonic
Special Stage 7 - Sonic

I have included Super Sonic bosses with a ? so far, as I think we should debate their worth before disregarding them. I'll admit that it wouldn't help a great deal on some, but on others it would make a massive difference, and so I personally think that warrants their inclusion.

How you want to order the Special division (as Times, Rings or Score), or whether you want it at all, and would rather just have the SS' tacked into the T/R/S also needs a bit of discussion. I've tried to keep the formatting for these as close as possible to the Ep1 charts, the exception is I made the Special division for SS Rings, as the focus of Ep2's SS' are collecting rings.

What be the thoughts?
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 06:20:47 AM by Mr. Freeze »
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Offline Taillow

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #11 on: May 15, 2012, 06:36:51 PM »
Why doesn't Sky Fortress Act 1 have scores/rings?  Have you tried waiting the boss out instead of striking it?  There's a video on youtube that does it (And Kirby did it himself when he streamed the beta), but I dunno if this is the same in the final version (It probably is).  I suggest you check.

Aside from that I think it looks good.
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Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2012, 06:45:24 PM »
If the boss eventually goes away on its own and the level ends, I guess technically that is grounds to include it in Scores and Rings. Times I still don't think it is worth it, but that's just my opinion.

Just tested a couple of bosses:

SC Boss, Super Sonic can hit the boss without using the Fly tag action, but the timing is tough.
SF Boss, Super Sonic makes a massive difference, like, 20 seconds faster difference.
WP Boss, Super Sonic makes some difference, but not a great deal.
The Final Boss it will make a huge difference because INVINCIBLE.

OD Boss I dont think it will serve any purpose other than to make the ascent less of a hassle.

Also took on Quartz's mission, SF1 Metal Sanic does indeed sod off after a while, so the level -isn't- an infinite autoscroller, meaning rings and score charts for it are quite valid. It's worth noting however, that I got a time bonus of 0, so a score attack for the level will require killing the boss anyway.

Edit:

In addition to my above findings;

[11:18:00] <+FKE> RPG
[11:18:05] <+FKE> SS deals double damage to bosses

Super Sonic Boss' are looking pretty valid.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 06:20:01 AM by Mr. Freeze »
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Offline Parax

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 12:32:51 PM »
I am all for pretending SF1 doesn't exist

but if we can't do that yeah what you guys were saying sounds good I guess

Offline DATBOI | War Anvil

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 12:52:52 PM »
RPG's chart is the best chart for Sonic 4: Episode 2.  I'd take it all the way. (Kakapo gif)
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Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2012, 03:57:09 PM »
Quote from: Thorn
I have been reading it and agree with it since that's pretty much the conclusion I gathered quite a while ago; it was easy to think about charts after the Beta 8 leak. Of course, I won't have the game myself until XBLA updates on Wednesday, so I'm not adding anything before then because you're hesitant on Special Stage Times, and I'm not sure if one type of Special Stage chart deserves a Special category and the others don't (we can't mix time, ring, and score stats in one category).

...this is the part where another admin says "We're not having the same delay as Episode 1's charts!", puts them up before the game even hits XBLA, then gets to hear all of the whining at his sorting decisions.

Some facts were once again left out:
The reason we ultimately put Bosses under Times was to reflect the game's own Stage Select. That was not any admin (we all know you're talking about me) going "We're not having the same delay as Episode 1's charts," but rather a suggestion I made which received widespread approval.

As for Sky Fortress 1 (time), while it is an autoscroll, there are instances where you can control how soon a cutscene starts (e.g. standing a little to the left of the center will get you started faster than standing near the rightmost part of the screen. I want to address that before removing it.

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2012, 04:08:17 PM »
Some facts were once again left out:
The reason we ultimately put Bosses under Times was to reflect the game's own Stage Select. That was not any admin (we all know you're talking about me) going "We're not having the same delay as Episode 1's charts," but rather a suggestion I made which received widespread approval.

...huh? How can you say I'm claiming you made a decision about the "same delay" when the instance you're quoting is that exact delay? It's a generic statement on something that not only have you done in the past, but other admins as well. Sonic 2006 charts are a clusterfuck of bad category and DLC decisions; that's the biggest example I had in mind, and other charts have suffered a bit of it as well due to rushing them onto TSC.

Don't accuse me of taking potshots at you just because you're reading way too far into it.
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Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2012, 04:49:46 PM »
Quote from: RPG
The Final Boss it will make a huge difference because INVINCIBLE.

Egg Heart stalls for time. You would need to disable SS before landing a hit, or else rings are gonna get drained, HARD.

Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2012, 05:44:22 PM »
Quote from: RPG
The Final Boss it will make a huge difference because INVINCIBLE.

Egg Heart stalls for time. You would need to disable SS before landing a hit, or else rings are gonna get drained, HARD.

Protip: not hard
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Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #19 on: May 16, 2012, 11:48:15 PM »
Okay, go ahead and tagroll on that electric floor.

Offline Bilan

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #20 on: May 17, 2012, 02:07:26 AM »
Why would you tagroll along the electricity? That's hella dumb when you can just tag fly up to the boss chamber with only mild inconvenience on every hit bar one.

Also I was under the impression the point was to enjoy being invincible, to get up to him in a couple of seconds, then disable it and smack him. You will never need to tagroll except for hits 6, 7 and 8, and only on hit 8 is the inner ring electrified. Though actually, Super Sonic is capable of breaking level obstacles that need tagroll, maybe he can break the final boss' barrier too?

Edit: tested it and it is the strategy for winners. Without delving further into the land of optomising it, so far I have 2:12:77 as my best.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 02:30:32 AM by Mr. Freeze »
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Offline Ajavalo

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #21 on: May 17, 2012, 02:26:15 PM »
About Super Sonic stats: do you need to finish the stage transformed, or just using him at some moments is enough? I say this because of the combo moves.

By the way, doesn't this game have the classic 10 minute time limit? If this is the case, autoscroller scores aren't actually broken, maybe just boring as hell, but has anyone tested if time bonus wouldn't end up being more important than Rings in at least some of those levels?

Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #22 on: May 17, 2012, 05:28:16 PM »
I know this not about Episode 2 but, I like how the ep 1's charts went. I don't know if you guys want the same thing for Ep 2. From the Super Sonic gameplay that I saw from the beta seems that You have to turn Super Sonic a lot if your doing a SS speed run due to using Tails. Kinda odd how that cancels out Super Sonic.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 05:38:32 PM by SonicandInuyasha »
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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #23 on: May 17, 2012, 05:51:26 PM »
Nobody has mentioned this except in chat and a decision was never reached on it, so I thought I would mentioned it on the thread. Should episode metal be tracked?

Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #24 on: May 17, 2012, 06:00:26 PM »
I was about to say that as well. I mean why not add them.
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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #25 on: May 17, 2012, 06:03:49 PM »
If we were to track them we should make them a separate game because to get Episode Metal you need to have both Episodes 1 and 2 and not everyone will have both.

Offline SonicandInuyasha

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #26 on: May 17, 2012, 06:16:09 PM »
I know that, when I get a ps3 I'm getting Episode 1 and 2 also A few Sonic games. I know that I have Ep 1 on my Wii but I like to play the game with the right music. Also Episode Metal would a short game to chart.
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Offline Thorn

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #27 on: May 17, 2012, 07:21:52 PM »
Leaving this point here before I forget: Death Egg mk.II 1 does indeed have infinite rings, but it has a finite time limit. Is ten minutes of rings enough to make up for losing the huge time bonuses that Sonic 4 offers? It may be worth having charts for it despite our usual infinite-ring-ban policy. I'm not sure if ring charts would be boring (but that didn't stop S3&K score spam charts), but time bonus beating the ring bonus might make for score charts.
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Offline Parax

Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #28 on: May 17, 2012, 08:04:37 PM »
Well, we didn't track Casino Street 1 scores in Episode 1 even though that had a time over too. :s

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Re: SANIC FORE EPISODE TOO CHARTZ
« Reply #29 on: May 17, 2012, 09:35:27 PM »
^ There's two things at play there: infinite ring sources (with time over), and luck. We've dealt with luck sources without time over (like random ring items) by allowing them. We've dealt with infinite sources without time over by banning them. Casino Night / Street are infinite ring sources with luck involved and are banned.

I wager that Death Egg mk.II 1 is a new situation: infinite ring source with no luck involved and time over.
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