Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal


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Should S3 / S3K Freestyle divisions be replaced with "Super" divisions that have actual competition weight?

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Offline Rusty Rom

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Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« on: September 13, 2012, 06:12:07 PM »
Ok, seeing the recent changes that are being made to TSC, I think it's time for me to show my proposal as well.

S2/3/K currently have Freestyle divisions that are used for Super characters times. However they don't have ANY competition weight. And if you look at the S4E1/E2 rankings, there're Super Sonic divisions that have actual competition weight.

For the sake of making charts more consistent, I propose that Freestyle divisions should be renamed Super and have actual competition weight. As for the rules, I had some discussion with Umbreon and we both agreed that the same rule from S4 could be used for the MD/Gen games as well. 

Quote
* In Super divisions, you must transform before the act ends in order for your stat to count.

Vote and post your opinion about it

Offline Gpro

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #1 on: September 13, 2012, 06:22:28 PM »
It would make sense. Sonic 4 Episode I(dunno about II) uses this same type of ruling. Why not do it here?

Offline Cream147

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #2 on: September 13, 2012, 06:30:28 PM »
I see no reason why this shouldn't be added. Indeed, I see reason why it should be added, for consistency's sake.

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #3 on: September 13, 2012, 06:37:07 PM »
If you are to add them, you can't simply convert from freestlye. There's more than Super character stats posted there. Namely, glitch usage of the banned sort.

Offline Proxima

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #4 on: September 13, 2012, 06:44:52 PM »
I'm against it.

Firstly, competing in such divisions would require using cheats -- I understand that in S4 it's an integral part of the game.

Adding an extra "times" division would bias the overall rankings even further in favour of times.

In S2 at least, it would almost always (perhaps always) be slower to use Super Sonic (because you have to collect 50 rings). So what's the point?

S4 has Super divisions for times and scores, and you haven't made clear whether you propose to add both for S2/S3. Scores would be really annoying for S2 in particular because you would have to avoid transforming throughout the level, and then transform at the end to comply with the letter of the law. Again, this would generate a feeling of "why are you making me do this?"

S3&K is daunting enough already -- you have to replay each level with three characters as well as having three divisions to compete in. If you're going to add Super, I suppose it would have to be Super for all three, and why not Hyper while we're about it? That would drain all the fun out of competing.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 06:58:04 PM by Proxima »

Offline Bilan

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #5 on: September 13, 2012, 07:17:19 PM »
As said above, I was going to point out that you can probably complete the level via regular means or via herpin and derpin your way to the end faster than you can collect 50 rings, turn super, and then go about doing either of the two methods I mentioned, so is it really worth charting?

Then again we track super sonic for S4E2 and his usefulness is mostly obsoleted by tagroll2win so!?
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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #6 on: September 13, 2012, 10:10:19 PM »
Many S3&K levels are faster with Super or Hyper, and there are even some zips that are only performable by using one of these transformations. I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of S2 levels weren't, though. They're generally shorter.
« Last Edit: September 13, 2012, 10:20:06 PM by Strong Bad »

Offline Rusty Rom

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #7 on: September 14, 2012, 04:58:13 PM »
Whoa, that's a fairly good amount of discussion in only 1 day indeed...
Anyway, here're some things I have to clarify since my post was kinda rushed

First:
If you are to add them, you can't simply convert from freestlye. There's more than Super character stats posted there. Namely, glitch usage of the banned sort.

Oddly enough, you removed the bans for all the S3TA glitches yourself, which implies that currently the Freestyle divisions for all the 3 games are being used exclusively for Super/Hyper times.

Quote
S4 has Super divisions for times and scores, and you haven't made clear whether you propose to add both for S2/S3. Scores would be really  annoying for S2 in particular because you would have to avoid transforming throughout the level, and then transform at the end to comply with the letter of the law. Again, this would generate a feeling of "why are you making me do this?"


S3&K is daunting enough already -- you have to replay each level with three characters as well as having three divisions to compete in. If you're going to add Super, I suppose it would have to be Super for all three, and why not Hyper while we're about it? That would drain all the fun out of competing.

Proxima: my intentions are to have only times charts, since they already exist in Freestyle, I really agree with your point about scores so scores wouldn't be added. Additionally, for S3&K we'd have a single category where you can choose either playing as Super or Hyper characters (the only major difference between Super and Hyper is Hyper Sonic's air dash move)


Offline Luxray

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #8 on: September 14, 2012, 05:06:22 PM »
Quote from: Proxima
S3&K is daunting enough already -- you have to replay each level with three characters as well as having three divisions to compete in. If you're going to add Super, I suppose it would have to be Super for all three, and why not Hyper while we're about it? That would drain all the fun out of competing.
Having Super/Hyper charts for scores and especially rings would be ridiculous as you would perform the exact same for all categories (or even divisions depending on how it's split) except for the very end when you transform.

(the only major difference between Super and Hyper is Hyper Sonic's air dash move)
Don't forget all the glitches and wall zips that come with that air dash, it's more than different enough.
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Offline Proxima

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #9 on: September 14, 2012, 05:12:32 PM »
Oddly enough, you removed the bans for all the S3TA glitches yourself, which implies that currently the Freestyle divisions for all the 3 games are being used exclusively for Super/Hyper times.

Except it doesn't. It might mean that there's no reason for using Freestyle other than to post Super times, but certainly S2 at least currently has quite a lot of times posted in it that I don't think are possible with Super.

Additionally, for S3&K we'd have a single category where you can choose either playing as Super or Hyper characters

To clarify, do you mean Super and Hyper would be lumped together (but there would still be three Super/Hyper categories for the three characters), or that it would all be lumped into a single category?

Offline flying fox

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #10 on: September 14, 2012, 05:15:50 PM »
Question: what do people think about tracking rings as Super Sonic only in S2? As people would know when Sonic reaches 50 rings and jumps he turns Super automatically. I just wondered if that was worth tracking since it would be some taing on the side and probably some careful planning.

Offline Luxray

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #11 on: September 14, 2012, 05:18:33 PM »
Question: what do people think about tracking rings as Super Sonic only in S2? As people would know when Sonic reaches 50 rings and jumps he turns Super automatically. I just wondered if that was worth tracking since it would be some taing on the side.

Rolken has suggested this in the past, perhaps it should be thrown in for discussion.
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Offline Rusty Rom

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #12 on: September 14, 2012, 05:21:22 PM »
To clarify, do you mean Super and Hyper would be lumped together (but there would still be three Super/Hyper categories for the three characters), or that it would all be lumped into a single category?

The Super category would have one division per character (2 for S2, 3 for S3&K)


Offline Luxray

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #13 on: September 14, 2012, 05:25:24 PM »
To clarify, do you mean Super and Hyper would be lumped together (but there would still be three Super/Hyper categories for the three characters), or that it would all be lumped into a single category?

The Super category would have one division per character (2 for S2, 3 for S3&K)

Do note, for a new category of times, you're giving new sitewide points to the person who can TA with a Super character better, which will usually be the person that can TA a regular character better. Extra points for doing it with different characters would inflate the points that the best are getting by a largeish factor (since s2-3&k are heavily weighted). We don't want to give out extra sitewide points for no extra reason. While more characters in the Times Division would make the charts more bloated, they would still be weighed appropriately in the leadership bonus.
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Offline Rusty Rom

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #14 on: September 14, 2012, 05:31:18 PM »
Do note, for a new category of times, you're giving new sitewide points to the person who can TA with a Super character better, which will usually be the person that can TA a regular character better. Extra points for doing it with different characters would inflate the points that the best are getting by a largeish factor (since s2-3&k are heavily weighted). We don't want to give out extra sitewide points for no extra reason. While more characters in the Times Division would make the charts more bloated, they would still be weighed appropriately in the leadership bonus.

My intentions in adding Super charts are just to make TSC charts more consistent, not to "monopolize" rankings. I think of this measure as a way to stimulate competition, as you have one more variable to deal with. about the weight of the charts, I don't know exactly how the weight system works, but if you mean that Super charts should have less weight than normal charts, then it would be no problem for me.

Offline Luxray

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #15 on: September 14, 2012, 05:40:39 PM »
Do note, for a new category of times, you're giving new sitewide points to the person who can TA with a Super character better, which will usually be the person that can TA a regular character better. Extra points for doing it with different characters would inflate the points that the best are getting by a largeish factor (since s2-3&k are heavily weighted). We don't want to give out extra sitewide points for no extra reason. While more characters in the Times Division would make the charts more bloated, they would still be weighed appropriately in the leadership bonus.

My intentions in adding Super charts are just to make TSC charts more consistent, not to "monopolize" rankings. I think of this measure as a way to stimulate competition, as you have one more variable to deal with. about the weight of the charts, I don't know exactly how the weight system works, but if you mean that Super charts should have less weight than normal charts, then it would be no problem for me.

Well then if you're going for consistancy, follow S4's lead and have them in the Time Category o.o
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Offline Rusty Rom

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #16 on: September 14, 2012, 05:50:00 PM »
Well then if you're going for consistancy, follow S4's lead and have them in the Time Category o.o

I see your point. However, if we were to relocate the Super divisions into the regular Times category, the chart would become too big. Besides, there's already an existing category tracking Super characters times but without the competition weight, so it's way easier for the admins (namely Gerbil) to rename it Super and establish the competition weight needed. When I said "making the charts more consistent" I meant that since we have Super divisions with competition value in S4, we should apply the same concept to the MD/Gen games, although the easiest process is the one I mentioned above.

Offline Proxima

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #17 on: September 14, 2012, 05:50:27 PM »
I think of this measure as a way to stimulate competition, as you have one more variable to deal with.

But, now that you've clarified you meant one division per character, it would double the amount of time required to get a full stat sheet, which is already formidable in S3&K. That certainly wouldn't stimulate me to compete; it would put me off altogether. I know I can't speak for everyone, but I wouldn't be suprised if other newcomers were similarly deterred.

Offline Luxray

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #18 on: September 14, 2012, 05:58:40 PM »
I see your point. However, if we were to relocate the Super divisions into the regular Times category, the chart would become too big. Besides, there's already an existing category tracking Super characters times but without the competition weight, so it's way easier for the admins (namely Gerbil) to rename it Super and establish the competition weight needed. When I said "making the charts more consistent" I meant that since we have Super divisions with competition value in S4, we should apply the same concept to the MD/Gen games, although the easiest process is the one I mentioned above.
Renaming categories like that doesn't work. He'd have to make a new one named Super, then divisions, then the charts themselves. The name "Freestyle" is always going to be reserved for some reason (I suggested they use it for Skill Times in Generations, because it was very apt, but it still didn't happenubersuxbtwkthx). Though I agree, it does need to be in it's own category as, i did mention above, the times category would be bloated and ugly, in fact, we've seen it happen before.
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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #19 on: September 14, 2012, 06:56:13 PM »
Cruizer, why does sitewide matter? No one actually cares about that thing. It tests an extremely variable skillset based on whichever games are popular rather than which games take more skill, so I don't find making charting decisions based on it to be all that cohesive to good design of a competitive environment.

Offline Inuyasha

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2012, 07:09:47 PM »
S4 has Super divisions for times and scores

I'd like to mention that S4 has Super charts for scores (ingame as well as here) mostly because Super Sonic gets quadruple points from enemies.  No mechanic like that existed back in the classic days, so the charts would basically be very similar... if not exactly the same in most cases.

Offline Cream147

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2012, 07:58:50 PM »
Oh, one point about the first post - you couldn't really just rename the Freestyle stat Super and then come in with the rule that you must transform into Super Sonic by the end of the level because the current freestyle ruling is only that you may transform, so current freestyle stats don't necessarily follow the rules. Intriguingly, it looks like people are transforming into super form as the freestyle times are in many cases slower than the normal times. Nevertheless, can we guarantee that this is true of all the times in those charts?

Offline werster

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2012, 09:21:17 PM »
Guess I should probably reply since I voted...

I voted No for a few reasons. I happy to be swayed the other way, but I'm definitely not there yet.

1) Obviously it's not faster for many levels. Sonic 2 I can't even think of a single level where Super Sonic is faster, -maybe- Casino Night 2 Sonic? Sonic 3 and Knuckles has hundreds and thousands of really early zips making over half the levels in it faster to not bother about transforming hyper either, and if they are it's pretty much only faster with Hyper Sonic because of his dash move.

2) I really don't like the idea of adding a huge ass new chart to a game that old. I've said this before on past matters, this is the kinda decision that I feel you kinda got stick with this far deep in the works. I understand trying to correct mistakes, but it just doesn't sit well with me :\

3) The charts are already there, you are free to compete. I myself have recently been making some Hyper Sonic videos, they are really really fun. Nobody is stopping anyone from competing with him, it just doesn't happen very much. As a result it seems clear that it would in fact reduce competition as it's another huge ass chart to fill up that people don't really want to deal with. Especially when the majority of the levels are exactly the same.

4) I don't know why Sonic 4 charts got Super Sonic, but I think it was because of the leaderboards. They showed Super Sonic on the leaderboards as legitimate competition, so we tracked them as well. So this really isn't "inconsistent" more that adding Super Sonic to Sonic 4 was TSC trying to keep up with online leaderboards and not be outdated.

I agree if they were to be added they should be their own division (and leadership, oh no Sitewide!) because it'd be too big on Times as Romulo says, and it'd punish people who have already put work into their Times charts and don't want to fill out another sheet. Well, punish them more to be more correct.

I'm sure I had more, I might post again if I think of them. Oh and Super Sonic 2 Rings are fit for like an Emerald Challenge, not actual charts >_>

Offline Alondite

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2012, 09:23:32 PM »
We allow almost everything else, why not just allow Super in the standard charts. Saves space, and keeps top S2/3 players from getting essentially free sitewide points.

I don't see super forms as being game-breaking or anything.

Offline Parax

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2012, 09:39:29 PM »
Yeah, I think werster's thoughts pretty much echo my own here.

Offline Gpro

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #25 on: September 21, 2012, 03:38:41 PM »
Werster brings up a fair point. However, just because someone will be punished for having their work put in is not something new. There have been times where Champs have been completely overtaken before, and, half of the time, they wouldn't come back to compete anyway(and example being when I overtook Jawzun). And the charts would look oversaturated, in a way, but look at Sonic Heroes and, as previously stated, Sonic '06 charts. Those are 10 times bigger than anything we would see with this change XD
Another thing werster has a nice point about is that Super Sonic isn't faster in most cases. That isn't relevant to having competition, however. The point is to be able to use Super Sonic. And even though the Freestyle charts allow Super/Hyper forms, there's nothing stopping people from posting their normal time in Freestyle. That makes competition for it worthless to begin with. And, as he said, it's fun to do Super Sonic runs, so why shouldn't it be added?
The final thing about having to add a whole new division... Hasn't this been done before? If it has, it really just requires time and effort. Meaning that someone with the time could get it done.
Well.. Opinions are opinions. This is just mine

Offline Rusty Rom

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #26 on: September 21, 2012, 05:36:04 PM »
Question: what do people think about tracking rings as Super Sonic only in S2? As people would know when Sonic reaches 50 rings and jumps he turns Super automatically. I just wondered if that was worth tracking since it would be some taing on the side and probably some careful planning.

Good point. I recorded a demonstration video showing what it would look like: http://youtu.be/owtJc0Kbg1A

It really seems like a better usage of Super Sonic in S2 imo. However for S3K the better option is still to have normal Super character speedruns

Offline werster

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #27 on: September 21, 2012, 08:04:03 PM »
Another thing werster has a nice point about is that Super Sonic isn't faster in most cases. That isn't relevant to having competition, however. The point is to be able to use Super Sonic. And even though the Freestyle charts allow Super/Hyper forms, there's nothing stopping people from posting their normal time in Freestyle. That makes competition for it worthless to begin with. And, as he said, it's fun to do Super Sonic runs, so why shouldn't it be added?

Like...the whole point here is for all the levels it would be quickest to get right to the end, turn super sonic for 3 frames, and cross the signpost. That's dumb as fuck and completely arbitrary competition. But it seems like Romulo at least sees Super Sonic in Sonic 2 is fairly stupid because of this.

The rest of your post is pretty much "This has happened before, so why not?" One of the most pressing points I'm trying to get across here is for something this big to happen to a chart we need to answer exceptionally well the very first question, -why-

What is gained from adding Super forms charts to games so old that prime competition is left only in memories, and that already has the access for competition if it was so desired? Freestyle charts are there and no one uses them right, that's why they are pointless? Well doesn't that go to show people aren't going to compete on something like this, especially when it forces Super forms into levels that they aren't meant to be in at all.

I mean let's be completely honest here Romulo, who are you competing with on TSC for S3K time records? You're beating old times, there is no direct competition. You can go right ahead and do exactly the same thing on the Freestyle charts, it would be exactly the same as adding a Super chart and you bombarding them, there would be no competition for your spot because no one with the same skill set is even messing with S3K right now.

Offline Gpro

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Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #28 on: September 25, 2012, 03:52:37 PM »
I mean let's be completely honest here Romulo, who are you competing with on TSC for S3K time records? You're beating old times, there is no direct competition. You can go right ahead and do exactly the same thing on the Freestyle charts, it would be exactly the same as adding a Super chart and you bombarding them, there would be no competition for your spot because no one with the same skill set is even messing with S3K right now.
If I didn't know any better, that's somewhat of an insult. Wouldn't that mean that you may also have something against Rom in the first place? In a way, you're saying anyone could beat him if they were competing. That's a low blow, man. I suggest leaving out this kind of stuff, since it could suggest you just hate Rom and would try to shoot down any idea he has in the first place.
Also, I'd like to remind everyone of the animosity it seems werster has over Romulo in the first place. *Refers to many of werster's videos involving trash talk towards Rom*
Edit: Yeah... I didn't read the last sentence of werster's post... I feel a bit stupid. Oh well. Besides, I bet you all have looked stupid and many places before as well :)
« Last Edit: October 21, 2012, 09:39:58 PM by Gamepro011 »

Offline werster

Re: Sonic 2 / Sonic 3 / Sonic & Knuckles Super charts proposal
« Reply #29 on: September 25, 2012, 09:42:07 PM »
That makes a lot of sense. I say no one here can touch his times, and I'm insulting him.

Seems legit.

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