Now what do we do?


    Send this topicPrint

Author Topic: Now what do we do?  (Read 10429 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Now what do we do?
« on: March 30, 2014, 08:33:08 PM »
first off this is Sonicandamy (do not ban important potential front page material)

http://www.soniccenter.org/members/imazor017/sonic_colors_wii/bosses/terminal_velocity_boss/sonic

More then likely the 1st place time is bs too. But in this run the "unlimited colors" button command shows up to early, as a result of the emulator. mods can research it or w/e but theres no need I researched it throughly its not a bs on purpose its just... it adresses a bigger concern I have with people indirectly bsing; I quit sonic generations cuz I couldnt trust it, and I thought sonic colors was a safe haven but after research I find this. it happens everytime a pc version is permitted to compete with console, which I believe is ok.. when its an official version of the game. but then u have people modding games it brings you back to the accidently indirectly bsing.

Now all emulators should be banned, this proves it, if it hasnt already been proven before. theres very very small changes the emulator can make to have a huge advantage on the competion front. but how many charts have been curropted by this? who knows; Im one person and this took me 2 days for me to figure out what was going on (and I only study bosses). its alot of work to sort out, but it needs to be fixed.

lastly theres alot here to think about, and its not something that can be fixed over night, but the longer we wait the worse its going to be.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #1 on: March 30, 2014, 08:43:47 PM »
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYwhY4esYCc#t=125

Looks like it comes up at the same time to me

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #2 on: March 30, 2014, 08:47:13 PM »
no notice his z command comes up after eggman explodes and the bs run the command shows up during the explosion. you have to watch very closely
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #3 on: March 30, 2014, 08:50:04 PM »
Oh I see what you mean. Strange. It'd be good to have more information on why this happens before making a decision about it though imo. How extensively have you tested it?

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #4 on: March 30, 2014, 08:56:39 PM »
I first found it funny that I would get the last hit (before unlimited colors) about a whole second faster... but still lose by about half a second. after watching many times I noticed the gamecube Z so I thought it was a problem with me playing on the wii u, so I switched to wii with gamecube controller only to be confronted with the same problem and then after looking back again, and noticing in his description he used dolphin. I was able to bring all the pieces together.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2014, 09:10:23 PM »
Right, but have you actually tested it? In other words have you tried doing it on Dolphin yourself to see if you could replicate it or figure out the conditions that cause it to happen?

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2014, 09:20:56 PM »
no, cuz I guarantee you wont find a console version that does that. and im not gona pretend like im a super expert on emulators... but running it on my computer vs his may not render the same results~ but then again it might and probably will I have no idea of his settings tho... but I also shouldnt have to? not to mention this is quote "Core i5-2400 (3.1 GHz), GeForce GTX560 (1GB), 4 GB RAM. The game works on 24-25 FPS (sometimes 30, minimum 21-22 while recording)." playing under 30 fps...
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline DsSaster

  • TSC's KevinTurtle
  • Broseidon
  • TMMC: DarkspinesSonic
  • win10 chrome
  • Posts: 305
  • HURRY UP DAMMIT!!!!
    • View Profile
Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #7 on: March 30, 2014, 09:54:41 PM »
This wouldn't be the first time something different happens on emulator with Sonic Colors versus what can be done on console. Some time ago I was looking into AP6 on emulator and found a fast and easy way to break OoB in the first 2D section, only to find out that it doesn't work on console. That was the only difference I ever noticed on emulator versus console as far as gameplay is concerned, but this is making me wonder just how much is different.
I am the champion of TSC! >:D 

Championships held:  Sonic 3D Blast, Sonic Adventure (DX), Sonic Heroes, Sonic the Hedgehog, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Riders, Sonic the Fighters, Sonic Battle, Sonic Unleashed (ps2/Wii), Sonic Unleashed (ps3/360), Sonic & Sega All-Stars Racing, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed, Sonic Colors (Wii), Sonic Rivals, Sonic Generations.

Zero Point Championships held:  Sonic Drift, Sonic Drift 2, Sonic Chaos, Sonic Battle, Sonic & All-Stars Racing Transformed.

I like my speed runs like my steaks...UNFINISHED!!!

Offline Staf

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #8 on: March 30, 2014, 10:07:54 PM »
Since no emulator is perfect, wouldn't there be minute differences in all games played with one?

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #9 on: March 30, 2014, 10:40:45 PM »
back before hedgehog games calculated hundredth of seconds this wasn't a problem, but now this makes all the difference. My biggest point here is to point out that this is potentially messing up a lot more charts then we realize, I dont even look at any other charts beside bosses, but I cant imagine they are immune to this (especially times charts). the only reason im noticing these is just cuz im obsessively studying the film footage and slowing down runs side by side.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #10 on: March 30, 2014, 11:54:58 PM »
Honestly I agree. I'd be in favor of outright banning all emulators, because ease of cheating aside, there's all sorts of little inaccuracies like this that are too difficult to reasonably expect people to notice. I think a good chunk of the community is very very against that though.

Technically there's already a general rule covering this:

Quote
* You may use any emulator for competition; however, any action performed during the run (be it an in-game action or use of an emulator function) that cannot be replicated on console voids your stat.

That obviously doesn't help when the inaccuracies are small enough that no one notices them, though.

Worth noting Dolphin in particular is known to be inaccurate in ways that may or may not actually affect Sonic games. Specifically, it doesn't correctly emulate load times. That's significant for games like Metroid Prime 2 where some glitches depend on being able to get into position before a room loads; playing on Dolphin makes those glitches much harder to execute.

So maybe the solution is to verify that this is an emulation issue with Dolphin, and then ban it from competition until the inaccuracies are fixed? It seems a lot of peoples' PCs aren't quite good enough to run games in Dolphin at full speed yet anyway.

Offline Staf

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #11 on: March 30, 2014, 11:59:55 PM »
Why is a good chunk of the community against banning emulators?

Offline Inuyasha

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #12 on: March 31, 2014, 12:08:19 AM »
It looks like Dolphin is lagging from the sheer amount of stuff going on (obviously slowing down the timer), while the Unlimited Colors prompt shows up at a fixed time after Eggman's last speech.

Wasn't there already a rule that required emulators to run the game at full speed to be acceptable for submission?

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #13 on: March 31, 2014, 12:41:29 AM »
Why is a good chunk of the community against banning emulators?

A lot of people are used to playing on emulator, either because they don't have easy access to the original consoles or because they like the convenience of playing on PC. I can imagine some games like the GameGear titles for instance might get barely any competition at all if emulators were banned entirely.

Quote
It looks like Dolphin is lagging from the sheer amount of stuff going on (obviously slowing down the timer), while the Unlimited Colors prompt shows up at a fixed time after Eggman's last speech.

Wasn't there already a rule that required emulators to run the game at full speed to be acceptable for submission?

That's interesting. Can anyone verify whether this still happens if the game runs at full speed?

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #14 on: March 31, 2014, 08:40:28 PM »
I got an update, I was able to run sonic colors on dolphin full~ speed (30 fps). I use that term loosely cuz my comp is super high end and I still had the here and there snag. anyways, at full speed unlimited colors command activated near time were it should. I then disabled all the cores except one in my computer and turned on a buncha crap and recorders and was able to bring the fps to 18~21 fps. this actually triggered the unlimited colors command BEFORE that explosion I was mentioning before. basically even a 1fps sway from the intended fps breaks the chart(s).

as far as an emulator ban, I say only ban them when hundredth of seconds are tracked. its a lot easier to spot a negative affect (and more practical without stepping on to many toes) from emulated hedgehog games that only tracks seconds as opposed to looking for a .01 difference.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #15 on: April 01, 2014, 10:48:05 PM »
ok guys I dont mean to be rude but leme tell you, if this was a private cooperation you would all be fired. I recall a topic complaining about action we get here on tsc is down to nothing but the occasion 13 year old. well maybe that's cuz yall take longer then me grandma using the internet and email to reply. (oh and GOD forbid someone double post)

look the main topic; the video I posted this case is open and shut, boom, bang. what else you want video proof? if u want video proof just tell me. this should already be done with. and 1st place should at least be under review. preferably id like flyfox to do it cuz she's one hell of an asshole bser interrogator.

lastly, my 2nd big main point is about emulators, honestly these have to go NOW in 3d sonic games every computer is different and can not emulate a console perfectly, im ok with this up for discussion a little~ bit longer. But can someone do something? is there not enough mods? is there to many mods? whats going on?!

look going to charts and viewing obvious turd stats pisses me off seriously. Look as far as competition goes dss is more likely to bs then me. so trust me on this.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #16 on: April 01, 2014, 10:54:09 PM »
Yes, because clearly one day is an absolutely unacceptable turnaround time for considering as large a rule change as the one you're requesting.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #17 on: April 01, 2014, 11:02:41 PM »
I didn't say that, that main topic is the stat; secondary Im attacking emulators. this isnt something that should be discussed in mod forums if yall are seriously considering something. I want the discussion transparent. and if there is need for one; a healthy debate.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

Offline Parax

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2014, 11:16:57 PM »
Fair enough, that particular stat is suspended.

For now, I'm going to implement the rule we decided on a while ago about proof being mandated for stats performed on emulator. The issue with Dolphin you noticed only happens when the game lags, which is already against the rules, so having this rule in place should make it much easier to pick out when issues like this come up.

If these sort of issues continue cropping up even with that rule in place, then we'll revisit the idea of banning some emulators entirely. I think it'd be nice to see how this works out first though.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Now what do we do?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2014, 11:26:06 PM »
ok, im not quite happy with that though; remember I played the emulated version, even a 1fps difference from intended impacts that game, and this even happened on my pc, that just doesn't seem fair.
We Shine Like Rainbows~ 

    Send this topicPrint
 

Hits: 106 | Hits This Month: 3 | DB Calls: 8 | Mem Usage: 6.82 MB | Time: 0.06s | Printable

The Sonic Center v3.9
Copyright 2003-2011 by The Sonic Center Team.