New rules regarding emulators


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Offline Parax

New rules regarding emulators
« on: April 01, 2014, 11:47:45 PM »
Following a discussion in the forums a little while ago, we've implemented some new rules regarding emulators. From now on, stats achieved on emulators are required to have proof. Since there's no function to upload proof directly to the site as of right now, instead we're requesting that you upload your proof somewhere and link to it through your stat comment. In accordance, I've created a thread where you can attach your proof files to a forum post, but if you'd like to upload elsewhere instead, that's fine.

There are a couple reasons for this change. First, it's been shown time and time again that emulators make it significantly easier to cheat. When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult. Second, emulators are not perfect and sometimes have accuracy issues that might be difficult to pick up on. With proof available, it gives all competitors an opportunity to verify for themselves that the stats they're competing against were accomplished fairly, without any unfair advantages caused by inaccurate emulation.

I also want to highlight one other somewhat recent rule. It's not new, but I think it's worth emphasizing. If you can't run the game at full speed, your stat is void. Don't submit it. If your emulator is lagging, at best, you will gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with. At worst, it can make the game behave differently than it would otherwise and give you an unfair advantage. Either way, it's not acceptable.

These rules are kind of a middle ground between leaving things the way they were before and banning emulators (or at least some emulators) entirely. Hopefully this will help make competition more fair to everyone.

If you notice any emulated stats that are in violation of the rules, let an admin know (me, Thorn, or Zeupar) and we'll handle it.

edit: I should add that stats already on the charts without proof will be grandfathered in, because I don't think anyone wants to dig through 10 years of stats and suspend all of the ones that don't have proof.

iOS and Android titles are exempt from this rule because the performance of the game can vary by a lot even when it's not being emulated.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 01:34:05 AM by Parax »

Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2014, 12:12:57 AM »
Just a quick question, are official emulators such the Wii, 3DS, and Wii U Virtual Console ok to use as they were before or will they require proof too? I don't use a lot of unofficial emulators, so I don't know of how they behave compared to official emulators. I've heard that official emulators usually are ok with how they play compared to the original version of the game, but there can be differences sometimes, which is why I am asking.


     

Offline Parax

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2014, 12:14:29 AM »
Official emulators are fine.

Offline SB737

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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2014, 03:46:20 AM »
The emulator proof thread states that a movie file must be attached, however not all emulators have that functionality, could this be cleared up please, so for example if fusion is used what happens then?
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Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2014, 11:29:48 AM »
I agree with SonicBoom about clearing up what defines a movie file. Initially I'm guessing recorded inputs and recorded videos, but is there any quality demands like 10fps minimum or at least 256 colours, 96p etc. If a input file is done from a savestate on e.g. Gens11b then the savestate should also be provided or it doesn't really say much at all.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 11:36:04 AM by TimpZ »

Offline Parax

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #5 on: April 02, 2014, 11:50:40 AM »
Yeah, obviously a savestate should be included. As for emulators without recording functionality, I suppose a regular old video would suffice in that case?

I'm far from an expert on emulators, just trying to put this together based on feedback I'm getting from you guys, so any input on better ways to go about doing this is welcome.

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #6 on: April 02, 2014, 11:59:49 AM »
Well if I provided an animated GIF with 1 frame per second and 20*20 resolution after being compressed with xvid and jpeg, you wouldn't be able to tell much about the video anyways. If you want a video, some form of minimum requirements for it should be set. Perhaps list a few common formats or sites were external hosting is acceptable. Something like "MP4, MPEG, AVI, ..., are acceptable formats. The video must be at least 320*224p and 25 fps".

Also, is there a time limit for how long a video needs to have video proof available before it becomes trusted? Like lets say someone uploads a stat then closes their YT account 3 years later, would that void the stat since the video is no longer available?

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #7 on: April 02, 2014, 12:14:43 PM »
fraps is by far the best way to record any emulator/pc game footage. its also a good tool to show you if ur fps drops... but could also contribute to a fps drop if your computer is really old. everyone should have a camera phone? use that if you have to.
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Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #8 on: April 02, 2014, 12:44:07 PM »
Assuming everyone has a good computer or cellphone is capricious according to SDM
Not everyone here has the fastest computers or networking speeds in the world. I don't really care if it's 2099 [...] don't just go around saying we all have to upgrade our PC's and spend all that extra time between attempts just so we can conform to "getting with the times." That's about as capricious as it gets (I said that somewhere before).

In which case for a console like Genesis I would recommend recording an input file from Gens11b, since it's allowed, because it's the easiest to analyse from a technical perspective and also the least CPU-intensive rather than actually rendering a video file as you play. Not to mention it's more accurate than "vanilla" Gens and lets you spend minimal time between attempts.

Bizhawk works well for SMS/GG as well for the same reasons. Recording videos with these and submitting is about the most backwards thing you could do anyway but I'm not gonna go into that discussion here.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 12:53:38 PM by TimpZ »

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #9 on: April 02, 2014, 01:47:15 PM »
you can record how ever with what ever. What this isnt is a witch hunt; we arent assuming people are trying to cheat, just the emulator doing things it shouldnt. Most everyone will be ok. now, if a stat ever comes into question and your video is say super shitty... it may warrent some explanation. the bulk of issues will come from emulators doing 3d sonic games or more complex sonic games, cpu heavy sonic games tracking tens, hundreth, of seconds. if ur running ann emulator of sonic just running to the right you should be fine.
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Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2014, 03:46:44 PM »
Okay. SO I WILL go in here and question this entire rule. First off, how can a discussion between two people on TSC lead to... this? I mean think about it. A month or two ago we had a discussion about banning emulators, which was basically just a huge discussion with no agreement. NOW, some guy called flimsy bsdetector goes ahead, finds a small emulator difference in Sonic Colours (Emulator: Dolphin), and a rule towards all emulators is made?

I will quote Parax from the first thread that had a discussion about this: "Honestly though, how far should we go in requesting proof from people? Although we strive to keep the charts as legitimate as possible, ultimately there's so many different ways people can cheat that there's no way we could safeguard against all of them." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition, Date 20.01.2014]

People could just lie about not using emulators, first of all, and get away with it.
Either you force all people for proofs, none, or ban emulators that are known to have even the smallest differences in gameplay. There can be no middleground.

HOW can talking about a single emulator result in enforcing a rule on ALL emulators? I thought that was the whole reason the [Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition] Thread failed to get to an agreement in the first place?

Now, I am someone who rarely uses emulators. I will likely NOT be, under any circumstance, having to submit proof. Except for 1 or 2 stats where I have to use the japanese version of Sonic 1.

I just want to know how this rule came to be and when this was decided. Or if this is the start of the "overhaul of the entire site and all its policies." [Thread: Re: Gens/BizHawk and similar emulators should be banned from competition]

This is just so sudden i thought this was an april fools joke. It literally came out of almost nowhere, except for that one thread about Dolphin not emulating correctly. Instead if we just ban Dolphin, and have people look at other emulators and if they emulate correctly enough, there is no reason for that nonsense.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 04:05:48 PM by Don »

Offline Kirbymon30

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2014, 04:38:55 PM »
I suppose I might as well put my incredibly lacking two cents in. It's not like I have anything to lose.

I have a sort of small argument that is more about me but other people might have this problem. The ideal form of proof would be a video, but what if recording makes the emulator run SLOWER? That's definitely happened to me on streaming, and if the issue here is that you can "gain an unfair advantage due to having a wider window to react to things with", how do you provide proof AND keep full speed in this case? Can't expect everyone to have perfect computers.

I don't have many other legitimate arguments, but I definitely do disagree with this. It takes away the freedom that made TSC what it is.
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Offline Gpro

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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2014, 04:42:12 PM »
I have mixed feelings about this rule. I mean, I definitely support making it harder to cheat, but not all emulators have the capability to TAS or have some kind of implementation that would void a stat's legitimacy.

If we were to go any way about this, require proof for specific emulators that can be TASed or something that like. To be fair, though, being able to tell who has what emulator is likely impossible, as not everyone will be willing to state their emulator or some people just won't say anything. In other words, while this is probably a better way, it'd still not be the right way to go about this.

I want to support these rules, but it's unfair and still difficult to track and properly implement :/

Offline Zorkiy

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2014, 04:51:47 PM »
I support Don, Hyper and others who are against this (as I told multiple times in the chatroom lately). Just saying.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2014, 05:23:23 PM »
whoa whoa this only affects emulator users, thats it. if u dont have a computer you dont have and emulator. the only reason this is being tracked is cuz some ppl prefer to play on the pirate bay special; thats essentially what an emulated version of a game is. that will infact mess with the end time. to put this in a extreme perspective it would kinda be like allowing a slighty polished version of s1 gba to be permitted. if your computer cant handle recording your computer is honestly in no state to handle the emulators that are truley being targeted here.
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Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2014, 05:31:37 PM »
to put this in a extreme perspective it would kinda be like allowing a slighty polished version of s1 gba to be permitted.

It is. It's called S1-13.

Seriously though, the issue here is that emulators are EASY to use. Recording programs use a LOT MORE resources than Genesis emulators for example. This is not an issue with just dolphin, in fact, all emulators are affected. Even easy to use emulators that ANY computer can use, even windows XP old style versions.

Offline Kirbymon30

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2014, 05:35:14 PM »
emulators that are truley being targeted here

Okay, this just makes this rule sound even more bullshit. If you're "truly" targeting certain emulators, why is this rule applied to ALL emulators?
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #17 on: April 02, 2014, 05:42:57 PM »
again... you dont have to use the computer to record you can use a camera or w/e you got.

but its up to the community do yall want ppl to purposely or accidentally to gain and unfair advantage that you cant beat without yourself lowering ur own fps? the only thing this rule does is ensure your on a fair playing feild with ppl who arent playing the game properly (console)

edit: kirbymon honestly 2d sonic games we probably dont need this rule... I just see this making sonic heroes, colors, adventure, adventure 2, shadow, maybe some more im missing... I see this making the charts healthier its a good start
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 05:50:39 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #18 on: April 02, 2014, 05:59:12 PM »
Okay, one more thing:

We were talking about ALL emulators at first. Now it's just things on Dolphin? Clearly, all those would be emulated on dolphin, aside from SADX, SA2B and Heroes having a PC version, anyway.

True, I could use a camera. Chances are, if I don't have money for a good PC, why would I make a crappy video with a 20 dollar phone I got? Again, the issue here isn't that Emulators are not trustworthy. I still find it very... shifty that all information on the forums are "Hey I found this inaccurate time" on the LD leads to "let's enforce proof on all emulators". The process is not clear to me so I want clarification. You've been beating around the bush, but I can see where you're going. Please, answer honestly.

Do you want Dolphin to be banned?

Offline Werey

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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #19 on: April 02, 2014, 06:02:44 PM »
Was there not a whole topic about revamping the proofing method not too long ago brought up when Paraxade became an admin, FF? I seem to remember there being a lot of drama about that exact subject.
As for emulators, it doesn't bother me in the slightest. If I HAVE to record, I will. If I have to use a specific emulator, I will. If my computer can't handle it? I won't use it. If using an emulator means I MUST provide proof, then I'll comply. If they're banned? I'll either not play those games or find another way to do it.

I don't understand why people would be willing to leave the site completely just because a little more effort is required in obtaining their stats. If people care about the legitimacy about the charts surely they'd go to any length to help keeping them legitimate?

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Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #20 on: April 02, 2014, 06:06:21 PM »
Another question arose to me, where exactly does the line for emulator go? Does USB HDD's in a Wii count?

Otherwise, I feel like people are making it a little too big of a deal out of this. I certainly think that certain consoles are terrible for emulation for competitive use, TASing ones without any requirement for proof and otherwise inaccurate ones like Dreamcast for example. But lets look at the options here:

What consoles do we have Sonic games for?
SMS
GG
MD
Sega CD
32X
Saturn
PC
DC
NeoGeo
GBA
PSP
NDS
GC
Xbox
PS2
PS3
360
Wii
3DS
WiiU
Android
iOS


These don't have emulators and thus we can disregard them:
WiiU
3DS
360
PS3
Xbox
PC

These have emulators that can record input properly in real time, thus recording videos is a 10-second extra chore per stat (not attempt) without any inpact on performance:
SMS
GG
MD
Sega CD
32X
GBA
NDS(?)


What we are left with now is:
Saturn
DC
NeoGeo
PSP
GC
PS2
Android
iOS

Most would argue that Wii, GC, PS2, Saturn and DC don't have accurate enough emulators for competition. Thus only NeoGeo, PSP and Android/iOS ports remain, which means that the only games you'd have to go out of your way to record is Sonic Pocket Adventure, Sonic Rivals 1 and 2, S1-13, S2-13, mobile version of SCD11 and mobile version of S4E1&2. Possibly DS games as well since I never tried recording inputs in that. And the quality isn't a big issue so using your cellphone as a last resort (like Romulo has done for years) is very viable.

The problem about lying what you're playing on remains though. It's an easy circumvent.

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #21 on: April 02, 2014, 06:08:19 PM »
This is not about the legitimacy of the stats. Clearly, if you have a method to record your stat and want to prove your legitimacy, go ahead. The only problem I see here is that there are people that have legitimate problems recording on emulator, which would kill their competition. Also, why would we trust ANYONE at this point that they have gotten their stat fair and square if all they have to say "I got this on console."

Why even trust people? Either you enforce complete proof, which will make all people unhappy, or let it be. I do not think we accomplish anything except offending half of the competition that can't record anything because of their hardware.

Last thing, Werey, you're talking about "ME". Clearly, just because you don't have an issue with it doesn't mean others will not have an issue.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #22 on: April 02, 2014, 06:20:37 PM »
sorry I was assuming other topics where read. Im all for an all emulator ban, but thats stepping on to many toes. I understand how useful savestates and whatnot are. to kill the bulk of the problem you ban all sonic games that track .xx seconds from being emulated. that would be my solution. and sonic game that only tracks seconds... will more then likely be picked up on.

I would like to restate that this isnt a trust issue. I trust everyone here.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 06:27:24 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #23 on: April 02, 2014, 06:27:06 PM »
So Parax, what is your take on this after reading all of this? Clearly this will not change unless Parax or another admin finds a better solution, a more accurate solution, we go back to the old or keep this. I just want to see the general idea behind this; flim_flam_bsdetector said that there were old threads? How old? Where? Can I even access them?

I want that everyone here being able to see the reasoning behind this decision, and if it is, at all, possible that we can still change this to a more accurate rule.

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #24 on: April 02, 2014, 06:33:50 PM »
The only problem I see here is that there are people that have legitimate problems recording on emulator, which would kill their competition. Also, why would we trust ANYONE at this point that they have gotten their stat fair and square if all they have to say "I got this on console."

I find it hard to believe that recording your gameplay in any form could be a legitimate problem for anyone not living in Uganda or similar. Unless you have a PC from -94 and use DOS-emulators, there is not a single reason why you shouldn't be able to record your gameplay from an emulator with absolutely minimal effort.

If you own a mid-tier laptop from 2005 or thereabout, you could run most of the most efficient emulators at full speed, while also streaming in like 96p 15fps. You could then keep a timer as you play and take a note of the time you get a new stat. Then you export the stream video to YT and post it to TSC together with your timestamps, no trimming or highlighting required.

You could also record input videos with most of the emulators for the popular consoles, which provide the inconvenience of you having to press "record" and "stop recording" before and after a successful stat successfully without any inpact on performance like I said earlier.

Actually I'd like you to explain a situation where recording would be so frustrating you'd consider not competing at all yourself.

Also, if someone doesn't provide a video, it is implied s/he did it on console. A new BS tactic could be asking them to take a photograph of the game running while holding up a note with their username to prove they actually do own a NeoGeo Pocket and Sonic Pocket adventure, otherwise it would be a proven lie.

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2014, 06:44:19 PM »
My reasoning here is that I have a low-tier Windows 7 PC. We're not talking just about using genesis emulators which I could record. We're talking about all emulators here. For the record: All of my sonic colours videos are in 30 FPS because my PC is too bad to record in 60.

I couldn't even record SA2B at 60 FPS (PC Version); I can stream it at 30 FPS to twitch and have next to no slowdowns. The thing is about processing power for everyone that uses emulators. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean you're gonna have the best PC available, or even a good PC at all; I'm just saying if we're gonna call out someone, make a rule about using non-TAS emulators. Make the rule of banning Dolphin and all 3D Sonic emulators that are inaccurate.

My problem here is that we had discussions about this but we always arrived at a stalemate and a small vendetta between you and SDM, but that's beside the point.

The case I want to make here is that Emulators are not the thing, it's the people. If you want to make BS calls, make BS calls. That's how this site has worked until now.

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2014, 06:45:09 PM »
lol a bser will bs and if they are good it cant be stopped... thats why we are still on a trust system even with this rule
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 06:50:24 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2014, 06:54:15 PM »
My reasoning here is that I have a low-tier Windows 7 PC. We're not talking just about using genesis emulators which I could record. We're talking about all emulators here. For the record: All of my sonic colours videos are in 30 FPS because my PC is too bad to record in 60.

I couldn't even record SA2B at 60 FPS (PC Version); I can stream it at 30 FPS to twitch and have next to no slowdowns. The thing is about processing power for everyone that uses emulators. Just because it's 2014 doesn't mean you're gonna have the best PC available, or even a good PC at all; I'm just saying if we're gonna call out someone, make a rule about using non-TAS emulators. Make the rule of banning Dolphin and all 3D Sonic emulators that are inaccurate.

My problem here is that we had discussions about this but we always arrived at a stalemate and a small vendetta between you and SDM, but that's beside the point.

The case I want to make here is that Emulators are not the thing, it's the people. If you want to make BS calls, make BS calls. That's how this site has worked until now.

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

I don't understand that argument at all. Recording Colours (which runs at 30fps natively btw) has nothing to do with the argument if you're playing on console. And if not you should have a very powerful PC anyway.

The PC versions of games are allowed as far as I understand the rules revision (STEAM emulators for example are official emulators and obviously PC ports are allowed). And you have a low end computer and can still stream SA2B HD in 30fps!

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #28 on: April 02, 2014, 07:02:51 PM »
Again, you're going away from the actual issue here. I AM NOT suffering under this rule, others are. My problem with this is that the indication made by flim_flam, which is Dolphin should be banned, shouldn't result in "all emulators need proof". The process makes no sense. That is the only recent topic on this, other than the SDM vs TimpZ (TAS emulator bans) topics.

I am going to straight up say it again: Not everyone has a powerful enough computer to record emulators. If you are unable to read this or skim this TimpZ, I am going to assume you just have no interest talking about what I'm bringing up. If you have any BS call to make, make your case. If you don't trust someone, speak to people and do something.

And lastly, saying all other stats that have already been submitted dont need to be reinvestigated is pure poppycock and if you really want to make a change such as this, it should be something you should think about. This is borderline nepotism to say that all other stats are gonna stay the way they are just not to offend all the other competitors that are not going to suffer from this rule.

This is not ABOUT ME, this about saying all emulators are untrustworthy. Not all of them are untrustworthy, not all emulators emulate inaccurately enough to warrant a ban or forcing proof.
« Last Edit: April 02, 2014, 07:10:23 PM by Don »

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #29 on: April 02, 2014, 07:14:21 PM »
I was asking for an example of a situation where you would consider not to compete because you could not record an accurate emulator since I can't think of any. You provided none.

The TAS emulator topic is irrelevant to this one.

Grandfathering old stats just makes sense. Generally if you pass a new law, you don't put people who disobeyed the law before it was enforced into jail.

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