New rules regarding emulators


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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #60 on: April 03, 2014, 12:30:53 PM »
i want to say first and foremost that this rule doesn't effect me, and in all honesty i don't care that much. i also haven't really read this thread, so if my opinions have already been stated or shut down i apologize in advance for beating a dead horse. i'm mainly posting here because last night my entire stream was flooded with this conversation for the entire night and i agreed to share my opinion on it. i should also add i'm not really a competitor, i only have stats for a few games and they're not good. i'm mainly on this site for the sake of talking to people.

the one thing i took away from what i've heard about this emulator requiring proof/banning/whatever is that i feel it ultimately doesn't even solve the problem that it's trying to solve and is tackling the wrong issue. i believe people are trying to solve the issue of people bullshitting stats, which i understand on a competetive site completely and think it should be adressed. requiring proof from emulators doesn't solve that issue, bullshitters will just say that they're using console and get around the rule. as far as banning emulators, that would just hurt casual players that aren't quite ready to make the investment in a console or game or whatever. i say this as a casual player who owns every sonic game and every console to play them on (barring a 32x), but i can see why someone who does it casually wouldn't want to spend the money.

if you want to stop bullshit i think the only real way to do it is to absolutely require proof for world record stats. if someone is playing a game at such an intense level and are so passionate that they are able to get world records for a game, it's highly unlikely that this person is incapable of spending a little bit of money to support that hobby and supply some proof. seriously, who would actually want a world record that they can't show off to other people. again, this comes from a casual player who has every means necessary to prove any stat i would ever have, so again, someone hardcore should be more than ready to. this isn't 2002 or something, for around 200 dollars you could easily provide yourself with everything you need to get your hands on what is needed to record your specific game from console or upgrade your computer just enough to allow you to record from an emulator. if you have that hard of a time getting a bit of money set aside for your hobby that you are that passionate about, you should consider fixing that problem before spending more time trying to get world records.

anyway, that's all i really have to say on this topic, and there's no sense rustling jimmies if you're not even going to solve the right issue, so keep that in mind and good luck finding a solution.

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #61 on: April 03, 2014, 12:42:13 PM »
Well what if you're not expecting to get a top percentile stat? You wouldn't record, couldn't submit it and get frustrated that you'd have to do it again.

Using a PSP emulator for serious competition sound like the least relevant thing I've heard all day. We have 297 players for Sonic 1, how many of them do you think used a PSP emulator to achieve their stats? You can always think of unrealistic examples, like someone playing on a 3DS with a pirate DS card with a Genesis emulator playing Sonic 1, but it's not relevant to take into account for the other 99% of players, most of whom care about legitimacy and accuracy.

The fact of the matter remains that recording your stats for all but the 3D Sonic's (of which Colours, Unwiished, Black Knight, Secret Rings, Riders ZG and Shadow are the only ones that are not unemulatable right now and not ported to PC) is trivial and not time consuming. Someone mentioned they couldn't stream with their 2008 laptop or something, but if I can record from emulators with a low-tier laptop from 2004, anyone can and I've already posted about at least 3 methods to do so in this thread.

The reason you shouldn't require videos for consoles is because it requires lots of investments and time. Or can anyone tell me how to plug in a Gamegear to my PC? This is not the case for emulators and to me it makes nothing but sense.

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #62 on: April 03, 2014, 12:50:03 PM »
I think your Logic is faulty, TimpZ. If you know you're working towards getting a top percentage stat in a game, you know how good you are. Nobody whose skill is equivalent of getting a really good (maybe even record stat) on an emulator will be surprised if they actually get it. If you know you're going to compete seriously rather than casually, it will not be an issue for you to know that you should record.

You of all people know that the amount of effort that goes towards learning a game will eventually pay off, and if you don't stop until you get a record, you should very much expect getting it. If you look at just the 2D Sonics, a lot of the records are owned by a multitude of people, so you won't get a good time or record if you don't expect it.

I do approve of Aurimans idea, if someone wants to play casually, let them!

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #63 on: April 03, 2014, 01:03:17 PM »
While I agree having a cutoff at, lets say top 30% or similar, could be a valid compromise, you just invalidated my whole post by me pointing out an example which has happened to me many times; getting a better time than I was expecting.

And no I disagree. If you put the cutoff at top 10% people are gonna push it until they're in the range for the apparent inconvenience of recording and inevitably get stats they can't submit. The same is true until you either lower the percentage requirement to be so low that it doesn't make sense to have it anymore or raise it until only the very top few stats require it. I feel like that defeats the purpouse.

Having it at a point like 30isch% could mean that people that casually play through the games don't have to record, but people that consciously try to go fast do. But again this defeats the purpouse of having a leaderboard to me, because why would you submit a stat you didn't put effort in? Of course people might have their reasons but if we're gonna do a cutoff, then it should be for any sensibly fast times and not just the record time or whatever IMO.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 01:09:02 PM by TimpZ »

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #64 on: April 03, 2014, 01:51:18 PM »
the only mistake here is parax mentioned that it will crack down on cheaters. it wont, if u purposely submit a video with obvious tas that's stupid, no one will do that im tired of harping on how this is not intended for legitimate bsers. I want to tear my hair out.

imo its a lot better the have a set number cut off at top 3 or 5. I feel %'s will just confuse. and the main goal of thia rule is to protect the hardcore competitor, period. this suggestion tackles potential casuals period.

the point about a new game comes out so you cant submit cuz theres only 3 players should never ever be a problem
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 02:03:14 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #65 on: April 03, 2014, 02:13:08 PM »
"the main goal of thia rule is to protect the hardcore competitor"

I don't think that is the case, but you and I have no right to say anything about "hardcore competitors". We really should talk about a case-by-case basis for emulators, rather than talking about all of them at once, or just disregard this rule as a whole. As far as I know, TSC has been able to track down most if not all of the BSers, given enough time, so I don't think a rule like this is necessary.

It will only inconvenience people more, the half-casual competition will COMPLETELY stop; I've talked to some undead TSCers that said they will probably not come back if this rule stays. And to bring up one of my earlier points, the proof that will be gotten by the rest of the competition will be 95% useless, because not everyone is going to BS and there is no one that is even willing to look at proof nowadays. I mean, a few months ago when Thorn wanted to leave, nobody even cared about COMPETITION, and the only thing that was talked about was bullshitting.




Offline Parax

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #66 on: April 03, 2014, 02:19:42 PM »
"Everyone is going to stop competing if x change is implemented" seems to get brought up every single time a rule change is suggested. I have yet to see any evidence.

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #67 on: April 03, 2014, 02:26:30 PM »
Obviously such evidence will only be brought once the rule is there, that's why people are trying to prevent it. This is really the first rule change that I'm trying to stop, so I don't know how it usually goes. I do not want to call people out on this, because this is a decision they have made for themselves.

I for one would probably stop competing here, just because the rule is not part of my personal mentality. I can assure you I wouldn't have tried to play Sonic 1 or Sonic Advance if I would've had to record every single stat i've made, and in general, I just find it unfair that emulator is instantly chained towards BSing. The Mentality of the whole site will indubitably change, if we accept a rule such as the one proposed in this thread.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #68 on: April 03, 2014, 02:30:32 PM »
man... idk what to tell you, I keep telling you this isnt about bsers and its blowing right over your head

 if the suggestion is also implemented this this only affects hardcore competitors that ONLY use emulators... cant see a mass tsc exit from that.
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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #69 on: April 03, 2014, 03:45:44 PM »
"Everyone is going to stop competing if x change is implemented" seems to get brought up every single time a rule change is suggested. I have yet to see any evidence.
People that care enough about competition and do so legitimately will compete regardless. Not that I'm relevant anymore, but passion tends to give people the motivation to provide proof and such. Other communities have no problem with this. If competition levels actually decrease because of rules like this, you've most likely weeded out a few cheaters.

Offline TimpZ

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #70 on: April 03, 2014, 07:26:07 PM »
Overall there will be more negative effects than good?

Please let me see the data you base this statement on.

I don't mean to be rude, but any prediction of the future is pure conjecture. This is not a problem I'm familiar with in any other form of game-competition. It seems to me like everyone that are arguing against have the simplisitic argument of "less people will compete".

Well, what if the goal is not to have as many people compete as possible, but rather have as accurate leaderboards as possible? The Ocarina of time leaderboards of ZSR doesn't seem to have any problems with competition and all of those stats have to go through a verification process of some sort as far as I know.

Paraxade's argument of "I've yet to see any evidence" still stands. What Hyper is even arguing about in his last post I'm confused about since he seems to argue that number of competitors is more important than the legitimacy in the actual stats.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 07:35:27 PM by TimpZ »

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #71 on: April 03, 2014, 08:09:05 PM »
Hypersonic, I want to show you a real life example that impacts you and actually everyone else

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RQn-D7WsXxc

and before you blast that this is just one level, let me explain. Watching the fps the whole video I dropped one frame at the beginning 2 more frames during the fight and dropped 2 frames at the same time during the last hit before unlimited colors (there was like a 3 frame drop on 3 phase cube but that's actually more in line of what actually happens on console) my time was 2:28:16 (which took me like 5 mins compared to console but lets keep it simple here.) I tied dss the only reason I didn't beat you was because I hit the wrong button on the last hit.

now without explaining all this and having an fps counter it looks like a normal run. compare it with the console. should I be able to submit this time? no, because I basically cheated. but I didn't do anything funny, my computer just snagged up. (like I've stated before I have a very high end computer)

Now lets say you don't have an fps counter, this run at first glance looks normal. WHAT THIS RULE DOES is still permits you to submit that run, assuming you have good intentions in mind. later down the road someone can pull up that run that is playing the game legitimately on a console and call you out if that time is "absolutely" not possible on a console.

im not in charge but im assuming you wont get banned, because this rule assumes you have good intentions, but the emulator has messed up.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 08:18:07 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #72 on: April 03, 2014, 08:52:36 PM »
Quote from: TimpZ
The reason you shouldn't require videos for consoles is because it requires lots of investments and time.

Quote from: TimpZ
It seems to me like everyone that are arguing against have the simplisitic argument of "less people will compete".

Well, what if the goal is not to have as many people compete as possible, but rather have as accurate leaderboards as possible? The Ocarina of time leaderboards of ZSR doesn't seem to have any problems with competition and all of those stats have to go through a verification process of some sort as far as I know.

What bothers me more than anything about these proposed rules is how logic seems to be warped for consoles, in comparison to emulators. This feels like an all-or-nothing rule, if it goes into effect in any caliber. Targeting only emulators is what strikes me as silly about the whole thing.

Even in the proposed defense of why the rule can work, things like the Ocarina of Time leaderboards, those people are recording their consoles, it's part of their competing process. If people are serious about increasing the accuracy and integrity of stats, it doesn't make any sense to treat consoles differently, just because "it's inconvenient".

People using emulators will be inconvenienced. I realize my PSP example is a little dated, but so am I. If you want a more recent, relevant example, most emulators available on Android and iOS devices lack recording abilities, at least last time I checked, and those are easily obtained by anyone.

It's worth noting that consoles aren't immune to age or imperfection, either, and can perform differently, especially if someone is dissecting things down to their individual frames. As my PS3 has gotten older, I've needed to occasionally defragment its hard drive to cut back on lag, and the same applies to PC's. Some old NES consoles I've come across have clearly seen some use, and everything was moving in slow motion, in relation to a "healthy" NES.

I think requiring video evidence of top stats is the most reasonable compromise if this rule needs to go into effect, but I do think that should also be extended to include consoles.
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Offline Luxray

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #73 on: April 03, 2014, 08:57:08 PM »
Two options to play a game:

Play on Console. If BS is called, provide pictures of the save file times (if applicable/newer games) or strat (older consoles/before times saved), like how we've always done.

Play on (Unofficial) Emulator & Record your input file at the very least. If BS is called, proof exists to quash said BS call before it happens.

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?

How does recording an input file affect your emulation? It's minimal strain as far as i know, and should not be a problem, especially considering we've had many special events/challenges on the site that required input files.
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #74 on: April 03, 2014, 09:39:32 PM »

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?


I wont go as far to say im suspicious but it really is actually making me kinda nervous the attacks against this; with all the misinformation that is being spewed out about this im still optimistic that most people are for this if they knew the exact facts. it seems like a common sense solution. you brought up TASer though, which would be a legit bser. which cannot be stopped without enacting rules that REALLY would make everyone mad. we are still on the honor system
« Last Edit: April 03, 2014, 09:46:05 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #75 on: April 03, 2014, 10:01:01 PM »
Quote from: Luxray
Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?
Personally, I don't have much time to compete outside of the house these days and I could easily provide input files for the systems it applies for if I got back into competing, but I still feel it's necessary to play devil's advocate, since I can see it would've inconvenienced younger me. By extension, it might discourage newcomers.

Quote from: Flim_flam_bsdetector
we are still on the honor system
And that's what strikes me as the problem. If the rules aren't at least consistent across devices and there are already exceptions and excuses for those exceptions, then what is really being gained?
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #76 on: April 03, 2014, 10:13:19 PM »
the rules are consistant across devices... but an emulator is an illegitimate device. and more actions are being taken against them to synchronize fairness.

and you are welcome to play devils advocate. because atm on the flip side emulator user has the advantage over a console so how would you fix it? sugesstions on making the rule better without stripping its core are very welcome

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Offline Luxray

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2014, 10:32:26 PM »

I'm not sure why people are against this idea. This stamps out most forms of any emulator faults or Tool-Assisted runs. I'm not even sure why we didn't require emulator proof from the outset when i joined.

Now for something i want answered.

Of the people posting against the rule in this thread, Who is now unable to compete because of this rule change?


I wont go as far to say im suspicious but it really is actually making me kinda nervous the attacks against this; with all the misinformation that is being spewed out about this im still optimistic that most people are for this if they knew the exact facts. it seems like a common sense solution. you brought up TASer though, which would be a legit bser. which cannot be stopped without enacting rules that REALLY would make everyone mad. we are still on the honor system

I brought up TASing because it's still a relevant point. Especially when some people still feel off about Chaos_Control's S1 Rings. People need to read things thoroughly when a rule change comes up because many misunderstandings can occur. I'm not entirely sure why people are even up in arms about it all. I still haven't read an excuse. Most of Don's points are all to do with video/non-input captures, and as such are a little moot because of this:

When someone is called out for BSing, and the only proof they provide is a YouTube video that was done on an emulator, it adds an extra layer of confusion since we not only have to verify the video itself is legitimate, we also have to figure out whether it was done using emulator functions or not. Having more data (input files) should help to alleviate this somewhat and make cheating significantly more difficult.




The only reasonable thing to discuss is this:

Forcing proof onto people NOW and saying "we're not going to look at the already posted stats" is competetive distortion. Maybe just to me, but it definitely is unfair.

At which point if people are trying to stop it because of that you have 2 choices:
  • Continue using this site and being unable to prove stats thanks to emulators being able to enable cheaters more (and accidental advantages from lag, etc)
  • Abolish all stats and start fresh with the new rules




And since i'm kinda going on a reading frenzy now, i'm going to address a misconception:

the one thing i took away from what i've heard about this emulator requiring proof/banning/whatever is that i feel it ultimately doesn't even solve the problem that it's trying to solve and is tackling the wrong issue. i believe people are trying to solve the issue of people bullshitting stats, which i understand on a competetive site completely and think it should be adressed. requiring proof from emulators doesn't solve that issue, bullshitters will just say that they're using console and get around the rule.

What's that? You used a console? Okay, please show us a screenshot of the saved stat on the game.

Limiting what ranks people should be able to submit stats is also extremely stupid. You can't make this a grey area. Proof or no proof. People who want to avoid giving proof will slow down to be under the threshold and be sub par, which isn't being competitive, it's being stupid and undermining the point of us being a goddamn competition site.

I for one would probably stop competing here, just because the rule is not part of my personal mentality.

If it's not affecting you, like you said, but you are physically/mentally disturbed by it, you can leave and make sure the door doesn't hit you on the way out.

Ok, show me a change that has had drastic, sitewide effects then.

What makes you think this is drastic? This is something that needed to be done and was put off for so long that people have become rooted into a bad system and don't want it to change. Competition evolves and so does technology. If we want to maintain integrity, we have to keep up to date and stamp out issues involving emulators being inconsistent and incorrect in replicating their console (and official) counterparts.

What bothers me more than anything about these proposed rules is how logic seems to be warped for consoles, in comparison to emulators. This feels like an all-or-nothing rule, if it goes into effect in any caliber. Targeting only emulators is what strikes me as silly about the whole thing.

We really should be enforcing proof for all stats. But one step at a time seems to be what's happening here. It'll come in time i hope.

By extension, (requiring proof for emulator play) might discourage newcomers.

Newcomers are more likely to be playing on console if anything.



I honestly think that all this hubbub is over nothing and caused by a minority of players. We've been the longest standing site that hasn't required proof for quite some time, and that honestly needs to change, especially when people are going to choosing emulating over the actual console. When you look down to it, emulators are meant to be a way for people to compete while not having access to the game (example: i don't own a Mega Drive/Genesis, so i use emulator to play the original generation of games). Asking for proof for all these means that we can disallow runs and emulators that aren't running like the original console/game, just like our rules were requiring so previously
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #78 on: April 03, 2014, 10:41:00 PM »
you said a lot there that I didnt dare say but really does need to be said. this would be a good check point/ tag/ sticky if possible in the discussion.
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Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #79 on: April 03, 2014, 10:44:35 PM »
I still stand by requiring videos for consoles as well as emulators would be the most thorough and complete way to implement this rule, but I'll admit it is a lot easier for people to use an input recording function of a PC emulator than it is to capture a video signal.

If anything, maybe the rule is at least a step in the right direction. Maybe at the very least it will get people comfortable with the idea of including some form of file alongside their submissions, and provide incentive to get a file attachment system in place for submissions.
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Offline Parax

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #80 on: April 03, 2014, 10:53:18 PM »
I actually agree that we should require proof for consoles as well, not just emulators, but when I've brought up the subject before it tends to get shot down by the same people who are arguing against the emulator rule. I seriously think we need more verification of stats if we want to be taken seriously as a competitive platform. Maybe we don't, and hey, maybe that's fine. Maybe that's just not what TSC is. I don't know anymore.

In any case, I think proof on emulators is more important than proof on consoles, because there are a lot more variables on an emulator than there are on console. Standardized hardware is actually important here because it guarantees a level playing field. For instance, the Unlimited Colors thing s&a is talking about would not be an issue if it happened on console, and happened consistently at the same time for everyone. But it doesn't. I think, considering things like this are possible, having a layer of verification where people are able to go look at the video and say "hey, that's not supposed to happen" is a good idea. If Imazor had chosen not to post a video, s&a would have no idea that he had a .20-second advantage (or something like that), and that can absolutely make a difference when a record is close to optimized.

Given that it's likely only going to affect stats in small ways, would people be satisfied if the rule was only required for stats in the top 5? Sorry if you suddenly get a top 5 stat when you aren't expecting it while playing on an emulator on your GameBoy Color, but that does not seem like a common enough situation to really be a factor. At higher levels of gameplay I think for the most part you will know when you're on track for a good stat.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #81 on: April 03, 2014, 11:24:53 PM »
well.. in the perfect world we would like to know all stats are perfectly legit. tsc is of course about the honor system, that will never change :) . thats why I like this rule it doesnt just protect hardcore legit console players it really also protects ppl competing on tsc that have no intention to cheat but their emulator may have done something illegal and can potentially be sorted out by the community. I've said I trust everyone here and I do, without mentioning names we've even had mods cave to the pressure of tsc's moral and admit to wrong doings. so I of course support this... I wish some of mhc would speak up about this too .. >_>
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Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #82 on: April 03, 2014, 11:43:56 PM »
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.


     

Offline Luxray

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #83 on: April 04, 2014, 12:25:13 AM »
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.

Did you even read the fucking thread? This is supposed to be about requiring proof for emulators. I brought up console proof because that the direction this site should be headed. Now is not the time to discuss is as it. It's also not for every bloody stat, just the ones obtained on emulators. Not everyone uses emulators for all games and stats.

Further the proof system at TG wasn't the problem. It was the airheaded, arbitrary dissection of records/categories; pretty much an issue Cosmo addressed when trying to brainstorm ideas for SRL leaderboards. It caused people to avoid it because they were banning things that detracted from the core of speedrunning: Going fast with nothing but the controller. You're also assuming that this website has a dedicated team to develop. We have one 'developer' or the site's source code and he seems to be apathetic in updating the site. Furthermore the only people interested in working on the site's code have no coding knowledge.
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Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #84 on: April 04, 2014, 12:36:09 AM »
Now that the subject of proof being required for consoles and emulators is brought up, I'd like to say that if TSC goes in that direction video proof should be required for the emulators as picture proof can't distinguish enough information, and picture proof at least should be required for consoles, if proof were required for each submission. There should be a system in place that lets you choose which platform you used. As said before, people can say they played on the wrong system, but no security system or rules system is perfect. The goal is to limit the damage as much as possible.

I'd also agree that a certain place on the chart should be required for proof if that type of system was implemented, as people said, all people should be free to use this site without too many restrictions, and the less competitive player may not want to prove every stat, but that could also lead to problems too. I agree that a proof system should be implemented as soon as possible, regardless of what type of rules are established.

Keep in mind that requiring proof for every stat or every stat at a certain level will weed out cheaters and turn off honest players alike, whether it be 1 person for each category, 5, or any number of people. You have to make the rules well developed but also determine what your target audience is. If you make a system where people can choose what stats they think are false and ask for proof, then you ask for the appropriate proof, which could be an alternative to requiring proof for every submission. The goal of the site should lean toward making competition as fun as possible, making it as easy as possible for players to compete/upholding the rules, and making the site a haven for the best Sonic video gamers in the world.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company. You don't need to go all out in making new rules about proof, a well-integrated system where people can ask for a specific type of proof and choose the stats they think are false works well because they can pick stats that are most likely false, and leave the lesser ones alone. Even if those lesser stats are false, you can't win them all. Pick your battles and limit the number of false stats as much as you can. They can choose lesser stats if they want, and those stats should be investigated accordingly. A team of people should be assembled to work on that process if it were to be implemented.

The site should try to not go overboard and overthink this process. Banning emulators is not good because they are a popular platform, and TSC has made the decision to allow them in the past, so they should still be supported. The people that will leave because of new rules for emulators would leave even faster if emulators were banned. New rules for proof that I mentioned earlier and a new integrated system for both consoles and emulators would work well, to help the site gain some more stability, as that is what it seems the staff is after. The majority of TSC seems to want the site to change, and you have to make a change if you want the site to evolve and grow.

Did you even read the fucking thread? This is supposed to be about requiring proof for emulators. I brought up console proof because that the direction this site should be headed. Now is not the time to discuss is as it. It's also not for every bloody stat, just the ones obtained on emulators. Not everyone uses emulators for all games and stats.

Further the proof system at TG wasn't the problem. It was the airheaded, arbitrary dissection of records/categories; pretty much an issue Cosmo addressed when trying to brainstorm ideas for SRL leaderboards. It caused people to avoid it because they were banning things that detracted from the core of speedrunning: Going fast with nothing but the controller. You're also assuming that this website has a dedicated team to develop. We have one 'developer' or the site's source code and he seems to be apathetic in updating the site. Furthermore the only people interested in working on the site's code have no coding knowledge.

That's not a nice attitude to take. If you don't want to discuss console proof now than why did you bring it up in the first place? The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems. I'm not assuming this website has a dedicated team to develop at all, I said that some features should be integrated. If GerbilSoft can't/doesn't want to do it, than perhaps the site should find more help to get the site advanced more and continue the site's progress. If you need help, then ask people outside of the site if they are interested in developing. How else will the site grow? The discussion was about emulators and I answered that question, and yes, I did read every post that was made before I posted.


     

Offline Luxray

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #85 on: April 04, 2014, 12:57:37 AM »
If you don't want to discuss console proof now than why did you bring it up in the first place?

I barely put it on the floor for discussion. I acknowledged the point and said it's something we should do at a later date. Nothing more to add to it.

The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company.

You directly related it, which is the step above implying. If you were making two unrelated statements, you should learn to write/type properly; Two different points shouldn't be in the same sentence unless you are trying to say that they are related.

I'm not assuming this website has a dedicated team to develop at all, I said that some features should be integrated. If GerbilSoft can't/doesn't want to do it, than perhaps the site should find more help to get the site advanced more and continue the site's progress. If you need help, then ask people outside of the site if they are interested in developing. How else will the site grow?

Well i seemed to have found out a moment ago that GS is okay with redesigning TSC. Though obviously 1 person can't design it all on their own without being able to dedicate incredible amounts of time towards it. If the administrators want someone to help design a new site, they will seek it out. Otherwise their apathy towards obtaining said help will mean that this site will not change much at all. So you are correct on this point.

The discussion was about emulators and I answered that question, and yes, I did read every post that was made before I posted.

This thread should not have blown out beyond what it was. All people needed was a clarification on what constitutes as a movie file, which is either an input file (w/ save state if it's not from boot) or a video capture that can show frame rates/lag. That's it. All this unecassary discussion was because of one person not realising this discussion happened months ago. 2 people against it, one of them thinking this rule change is out of the blue. (The other whose reasons I don't know, but that's because i haven't read that other clusterfuck of a thread in depth. I suppose he has his own valid reasons *shrug*)
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Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #86 on: April 04, 2014, 01:14:47 AM »

The discussion contained all of the points I referenced in my post, emulators and non-emulators. I know that there was more to Twin Galaxies than the proof system, and I didn't mean for their problems to be taken only as proof problems.

I personally would not like there to be proof required for all stats or even all stats at a certain level. It is too rigorous and will be harder to keep up in the long term. Twin Galaxies had a system like that (even if it was video proof only) and now it seems they are in a tough spot financially/running the company.

You directly related it, which is the step above implying. If you were making two unrelated statements, you should learn to write/type properly; Two different points shouldn't be in the same sentence unless you are trying to say that they are related.

Yes, I know how to type properly. I made a mistake, I should have been clearer in that post. I'd rather not be jabbed at when parts of your past posts in numerous topics were ambiguous/had a decent amount of incorrect grammar and spelling, enough that I was not too sure what you were trying to say. I was merely trying to help get some ideas spread around for TSC, and try to help make the site better.


     

Offline Parax

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #87 on: April 04, 2014, 01:18:05 AM »
Let's try not to be condescending towards each other please, I would rather this thread stayed productive

Offline Don

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #88 on: April 04, 2014, 07:22:28 AM »
Okay I have re-thought about this, and I personally would approve of either of these:

1) Console and Emulator proof are a must for all stats. (if we go the competetive route)

2) No proofs are needed, but are welcome for both.

3) Ban Emulators as a whole. (compromise between 1) and 2).

The reason why I am for this is because it will allow people to have a level playing field; either everyone has to submit proof or use normal consoles, or use both emulators or consoles without having to be inconvenienced by relentless proof submissions.

I just don't think that a half-assed rule that will stop casual competition ANYWAY should be taken into account, simply because it is not a good solution. As I've stated before, I am mostly playing on console myself, so I think if what you really want is serious competition, Emulators shouldn't be allowed.

In case that would happen, we should probably take charts into account that are mostly emulated (like sonic pocket adventure) and look whether or not it's worth keeping them around.

EDIT: Yes, I mean all emulators. Including BlueStacks, as well as emulators that emulate the Neo Geo Pocket colour.
« Last Edit: April 04, 2014, 07:29:16 AM by Don »

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: New rules regarding emulators
« Reply #89 on: April 04, 2014, 08:31:02 AM »
Not quite sure why you think this rule wil stop casuals, but an out right emulator ban wont?

but hey you mentioned emulator ban... sure lets do it? but this rule IS the compromise why would you not want to try a new rule so we can still preserve emulators. because an out right ban isnt a compromise, its zero tolerance.

I believe the issue your having is being able to distinguish that an emulator IS an illegitimate gaming device.

people arent changing out their cpu, ram, graphics cards in their sega Genesis so we dont have accuracy issues there.

now if this was about eliminating all bsers period your points would be valid... but thats simply not what this is
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