Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering


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Offline Parax

We're looking at implementing some new features onto the site: a system for handling proof and version differences, and the ability to filter the charts. Gerbil says these are feasible to add onto the site, and further, that he's willing to code them in sometime soon, so I'd like to push forward on this and make it happen. This will be a fairly big change, so I wanted to get a discussion going on the forum first to get everyone's feedback on this before going through and adding anything.

There are three components here:

1. Version differences - When you go to submit a stat, after selecting your game, you will be asked what platform you played the stat on. You can select any of the systems the game was released on, or emulator (where applicable). If you played on an emulator, you'll be asked to enter which emulator specifically you used. These will be displayed on the charts in the form of an extra column listing what version the stat was performed on.

2. Proof - You will be able to attach proof to a stat on the stat confirm screen, in the form of either a video, a picture, or an emulator input file. Small files (pictures/input files) can be uploaded to the site directly. Larger ones (like videos) will need to be uploaded to an external site and linked. This'll be shown on the charts as an extra column with a small icon linking to the proof. Any stat with any proof attached to it will be considered a "proven" stat, regardless of the type. Proving stats is not required. However, unproven stats will be displayed less prominently on the charts (similarly to how it works on the ZSR leaderboards).

3. Charts filtering - This is what makes the above two features worth it. All stats will be displayed by default. However, there'll be a few new controls on chart view pages, allowing you to filter what stats you want to see and which you don't. Here's a few of the controls I have in mind:
a. Version - You can filter the charts so that only stats played on a particular version of the game are shown.
b. Emulators - You can choose to hide stats performed on emulator.
c. Proof - You can filter to only display stats with proof, or filter out picture proof as well to only show videos.

Other things:
  • Old stats submitted prior to these new features being implemented will be treated as unproven versionless stats by default. They will still display on the charts and they will still count, but they will not display if version or proof filters are applied. To remedy this, we'll have a stats edit page, where you can go back and apply version data/proof links for your old stats without having to resubmit them.
  • Total charts will only be marked as proven or with a certain version if every single stat submitted in a given division has those tags.
  • Overall charts will be determined by all stats submitted to a given game, regardless of proof status or platform.
  • All stats submitted to the site are still expected to be legitimate, proven or not. We will still call out players who are suspected of either posting false unproven stats, or of creating fake proof.
  • This would be implemented instead of any of the emulation rules that have been being discussed over the last couple weeks. Personally I think it solves most of the issues that were brought up much better than any of the other solutions that have been suggested. You will also still have the option of calling BS on stats if you suspect they were done unfairly, so this is not a free pass for inaccurately emulated stats to stay in first place.
Here's the benefits of implementing this:
  • Anyone can compete however they want. Casual, hardcore, link proof, don't link proof, use emulators, ban emulators, whatever. Filter the charts to your liking. Only compete with proven stats if that's what you want. Hide emulated stats if you don't think emulators are legitimate. Don't bother with any of this if you don't really care and just want to submit some stats for fun.
  • This will finally settle the long-running version differences issue. Charts that have a significant advantage in one version or another, like Final Egg in Sonic Adventure (DX), can now be filtered by version. If you're stuck with the Gamecube version, now it's easier to simply only compete with other Gamecube times.
  • The extra layer of verification will attract new players to the site without negatively affecting anyone already here.
  • Having more media available will make it easier for new players to learn strategies and techniques.
  • We can basically get rid of the videos page entirely, as it'll be easier to find videos by browsing the charts themselves. :P
Some things that could potentially be implemented, but aren't currently in the plan, either because I'm not 100% sure on them myself or because I'm not sure if they can be reasonably implemented:
  • You can get a small sitewide bonus for proving stats. Nothing huge - just small tiered bonuses based on how much proof you've submitted for a given game, maxing out at 10% of the game's total sitewide worth. So say a game is worth 100 points, and 100% of your stats are proven; you get a 10-point sitewide bonus. If you've proven 10%, you get one point; 70%, 7 points... etc.
  • Filtering overall charts by platform, so we could have separate leaderships/championships for different systems, particularly in games with significant version differences.
  • Similarly, site announcements for new records/leaders/champions for specific platforms would be cool.
  • Being able to set default filters in your profile.
  • Being able to submit multiple stats from different platforms on the same chart.
  • Picture proof will probably have to be disallowed for some games; for example, there's some GameGear games where the results screen doesn't show any indication of what level was actually played.
Essentially, what this system does is incentivize proof, but not actually -require- it. That's not a compromise or anything; I think it's the ideal way the charts should be set up. I definitely see this as being a big step up from the system we have right now and will hopefully alleviate most concerns about legitimacy.

To reiterate one particular point, the proposed emulation rules from the last couple weeks will not be enacted with this system, since the additional data on whether a stat was emulated or not as well as the filters render it moot.

Anyone who has constructive feedback, feel free to post. However, do note that we will be moderating this thread a little heavier than usual. Being insulting towards others, derailing the thread, etc. will net you a warning or a tempban.

This thread will stay open for one week, so I want to encourage everyone to make the most out of it. Anyone who has an opinion and can express it well, please post.

Just basically want to say, that I fully agree with this and I think its a very good idea and can't wait to see it implemented. =)

I for one, will use this system and edit my own submissions for the main game I competed in (SADX) as I can provide links for most stats I obtained in that game.

So yeah..huge thumbs up to this I guess :P

Offline Coolfansonic

Personally, I think that this could really make a change to TSC. It makes it sound even more interesting and encouraging to enter stats in TSC. Say for example in SADX Most people don't like the advantage of the dreamcast. So now they can see where they would be without this advantage. Indeed it is a big change but at least it is a good one. Plus I get to see who has used what.

I hope this is successfully done.
I can't wait for competition with these changes.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 05:30:05 PM by Coolfansonic »

Offline RigidatoMS

Perfect. Now that I know I can use screenshots as proof, I'm really impressed with these news.
Edit: I have a lot of proofs for the Genesis games.

Offline CriticalCyd

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I very much approve of these changes. Rewarding proof rather than demanding it, the ability to filter by versions, all of it. There's a lot of potentional here :) kudos!

That's all I have to say surprisingly haha

Offline Gpro

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I'm all for this, despite the possible difficulty that comes with changing the charts.

My suggestion for previously posted stats is that if there's stats that are easily version specific (Green Forest M1 on DC, for example) is that you get together with some of the most knowledgable runners for those games and check out the charts, or relay the information on what would be an obvious version-exclusive submission.

Edit: I think we shouldn't completely separate version charts, but maybe just split up the stats that have version differences, or at least I think it might be an easier thing to do. I don't disagree with the new renditions by any means, but I think this might be a possibility to bring up.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 06:13:32 PM by Gamepro011 »

Offline TuKéZu

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I'm liking the sound of all of this, especially uploading picture proof directly on-site.

Just one question though...

When setting the version for a stat, will we be able to set the game's region?

(E: Or would this just complicate things? I suppose only a few Sonic games have any real differences, except for PAL games on 6th gen / older consoles.)
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Offline THC98

This new rule seems to be really good! It'll encourage people that suffers from console disadvantage to compete more, like with the new Ultra Glide glitch on PC version of Heroes. Good job with the idea! :)

Offline Parax

My suggestion for previously posted stats is that if there's stats that are easily version specific (Green Forest M1 on DC, for example) is that you get together with some of the most knowledgable runners for those games and check out the charts, or relay the information on what would be an obvious version-exclusive submission.

Yeah, for stats where it could only have possibly been performed on one version, we could do that. Would definitely need some volunteers to help with that though. The other thing we could do is go through the videos pages and attach any videos from there onto their respective stats as proof where possible.

When setting the version for a stat, will we be able to set the game's region?

(E: Or would this just complicate things? I suppose only a few Sonic games have any real differences, except for PAL games on 6th gen / older consoles.)

I thought about that, but I don't know if any Sonic games have significant region differences. If there are some like that, we could potentially add another region field.

Offline flying fox

I thought about that, but I don't know if any Sonic games have significant region differences. If there are some like that, we could potentially add another region field.

Shadow the Hedgehog. Only NTSC can do CC glitch and PAL can't.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #10 on: April 14, 2014, 07:18:33 PM »
1. Version differences - When you go to submit a stat, after selecting your game, you will be asked what platform you played the stat on. You can select any of the systems the game was released on, or emulator (where applicable). If you played on an emulator, you'll be asked to enter which emulator specifically you used. These will be displayed on the charts in the form of an extra column listing what version the stat was performed on.

2. Proof - You will be able to attach proof to a stat on the stat confirm screen, in the form of either a video, a picture, or an emulator input file. Small files (pictures/input files) can be uploaded to the site directly. Larger ones (like videos) will need to be uploaded to an external site and linked. This'll be shown on the charts as an extra column with a small icon linking to the proof. Any stat with any proof attached to it will be considered a "proven" stat, regardless of the type. Proving stats is not required. However, unproven stats will be displayed less prominently on the charts (similarly to how it works on the ZSR leaderboards).

3. Charts filtering - This is what makes the above two features worth it. All stats will be displayed by default. However, there'll be a few new controls on chart view pages, allowing you to filter what stats you want to see and which you don't. Here's a few of the controls I have in mind:
a. Version - You can filter the charts so that only stats played on a particular version of the game are shown.
b. Emulators - You can choose to hide stats performed on emulator.
c. Proof - You can filter to only display stats with proof, or filter out picture proof as well to only show videos.


compromise of a compromise of a compromise.

Actually I like this though, because this action still pushes a user more towards console considering that their stat can be(and will be by me) disabled and outcast. While at the same time streamlining what stats may need to be looked into thoroughly and thrown out.

Perfect; this is perfect good job.

I guess the only question I have is will there be a way to link proof to stats that have already been submitted?
also will there be an option to update your current stats to what console you used?
edit:nvm saw the edit page part

I think the only con I have is potentially giving site wide points to submit proof, up to 10% seems high just to prove your legit. :/ but I understand that's not set in stone if anything just make the % lower.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 07:28:37 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline chainchump

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #11 on: April 14, 2014, 07:20:25 PM »
I'm really looking forward for these changes to be made soon. Such a great idea in my opinion. Hopefully I'll be able to start competing again and potentially return to SA2B to improve some Scores and Boss times :P

Offline Parax

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #12 on: April 14, 2014, 07:28:45 PM »
compromise of a compromise of a compromise.

Actually I like this though, because this action still pushes a user more towards console considering that their stat can be(and will be by me) disabled and outcast. While at the same time streamlining what stats may need to be looked into thoroughly and thrown out.

Perfect; this is perfect good job.

I guess the only question I have is will there be a way to link proof to stats that have already been submitted?
also will there be an option to update your current stats to what console you used?

I think the only con I have is potentially giving site wide points to submit proof, up to 10% seems high just to prove your legit. :/ but I understand that's not set in stone if anything just make the % lower.

This isn't a compromise at all honestly. The only reason I didn't suggest this much earlier is because I didn't think we could do it, but since Gerbil's said yes, this blows all the other options out of the water imo. :P

Both of your questions are answered in the first post. Yes to both.

As for the percentage, that's one of the things I wanted some feedback on. Could always tweak it to be in increments of 0.5% instead and max out at 5%? I don't think a set rate would be a good idea, because then you might end up with a situation on some less popular games where submitting a full chart with proof would get you more site points than being the champion, which is dumb.

edit: At a 10% rate, most popular games would grant you 10-15 sitewide points for a full set of proof. A lot of the less popular ones would be around 5.
« Last Edit: April 14, 2014, 07:52:01 PM by Parax »

Offline yse

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Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #13 on: April 14, 2014, 10:30:01 PM »
Wow, I wasn't even aware Gerbil was working on the site any more. The copyright notice (2003-2011) suggests the code hasn't been worked on in three years. :P

Obviously I think all of these proposed features are fantastic, but I'd suggest one more: that the rules for any given chart are displayed on the chart's page. I don't remember if the rules page is coded this way - I remember you could set rules on the division level, but I don't remember for individual charts. But you could have volunteers filter out rules specific to certain charts of course.

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Offline Pokemonmaster888

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #14 on: April 14, 2014, 11:11:38 PM »
I think this set of new features is a really great idea. Filtering the charts, version choices, and the proof system sound really good. It is what I thought TSC should do and go in this direction. It will make competition much more fun, the site will be newer and updated, so many new features will make the site more fun for older members and new players alike. I do think there should be a bonus for sitewide points for proving stats, because you want to reward players that submit proof.

A feature on a member's profile page should display the number of proven stats they have, which is a helpful feature. The only thing though for people who have a lot of proof already on other websites is that they have to go and upload them all again on TSC, but that should be no problem, it might take a little while though. :P Same with editing your old stats to the version you played on. Just to clarify, will there be a multiple edit page with proof upload from PC/internet link option and version choice so you can edit all of your stats one at a time? I would assume so since the stats page is already based on multiple editing but I just wanted to make sure.

What will be the proposed file size limit for picture proof, and what file types will be supported? Will it be around 1 megabyte and jpeg? A bigger file size limit is helpful so you don't have to crop the image and resize the files which can take a long time if you have a lot of pictures to upload. :P

I think it is great that you can filter by different versions of the game so if you only own one version you can still compete without worrying about the advantages other versions of the game might have. The current leaderboards for the game and related scoreboards for each player will be the same points as now though right by default, or will you be able to filter the whole complete game scoreboard too?

I am looking forward to these changes and for the competition to be even more fun!


     

Offline InferSaime

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #15 on: April 15, 2014, 04:33:41 AM »
I like these changes. I would add though (maybe I read this wrong) is for filtering versions. I would make it so you can chose multipe versions to be shown. For example that you could filter out all DC stats in sadx and only see GCN/PC/PS3/360 stats.

Offline SpinDashMaster

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Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #16 on: April 15, 2014, 10:58:14 AM »
To be clear, filtering stats only permits one to show/hide stats based on their preferences, but does not affect their official standings (e.g. what one's rank would mean towards sitewide). Is this correct?

Offline Parax

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #17 on: April 15, 2014, 11:27:33 AM »
Wow, I wasn't even aware Gerbil was working on the site any more. The copyright notice (2003-2011) suggests the code hasn't been worked on in three years. :P

haha, we should fix that.

Obviously I think all of these proposed features are fantastic, but I'd suggest one more: that the rules for any given chart are displayed on the chart's page. I don't remember if the rules page is coded this way - I remember you could set rules on the division level, but I don't remember for individual charts. But you could have volunteers filter out rules specific to certain charts of course.

Yeah, I would want to take it a step further and show the rules on the submission page too, so there's no way people could possibly miss them. One thing at a time, though; let's focus on the chart filtering for now and after that we can think about changing more things on top of that.

Just to clarify, will there be a multiple edit page with proof upload from PC/internet link option and version choice so you can edit all of your stats one at a time?

The exact page layouts haven't been determined yet but we will definitely need a way to edit version data in bulk. I don't imagine the page will look all that different from the current submission page, honestly. (On that note, if anyone's got any ideas how the pages might look and wants to put together a mockup, that would be a great help.)

What will be the proposed file size limit for picture proof, and what file types will be supported?

Not sure yet, but I imagine most any image format will be fine. The file size limit is probably going to be pretty low to save on space/bandwidth; there's enough external hosting options that we shouldn't really worry about killing our servers over this imo.

Also, if you have Photoshop, it's not too hard to set up an action batch to automatically crop and resave your pictures for you.

The current leaderboards for the game and related scoreboards for each player will be the same points as now though right by default, or will you be able to filter the whole complete game scoreboard too?

We're likely not gonna have filters on the overall charts. It'd be nice, but I don't think it would really be fair unless we could also allow multiple submissions to one chart, and I can see that being very tricky to implement properly. It's up to Gerbil on this one. If he thinks it's doable, awesome. Otherwise, no big deal.

To be clear, filtering stats only permits one to show/hide stats based on their preferences, but does not affect their official standings (e.g. what one's rank would mean towards sitewide). Is this correct?

Correct.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #18 on: April 15, 2014, 08:19:35 PM »

(On that note, if anyone's got any ideas how the pages might look and wants to put together a mockup, that would be a great help.)


Seems preety straight forward how it should look, not so simple on gerbils side, but here is and alpha mockup


 http://i57.tinypic.com/rsyk9c.jpg

This should also be added? it might be easier (and more attractive) then posting a wall of text of the rules on the submit page?


 http://i59.tinypic.com/e871if.jpg

I think this is a big enough deal to consider this tsc 4.0 which I would like if possible for someone to create a new skin to celebrate?
on the flip side I would like to see when choosing to show emulated stats that your TSC version reverts to 3.9 with a little cob web on the sonic center sign in the top left... I dont think thats to much to ask?

alternatively you could just force the bad future skin when allowing emulated stats, and force good future skin when disabling them, if creating a whole new skin for the new tsc is to big of a task.
« Last Edit: April 15, 2014, 08:31:41 PM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline Coolfansonic

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #19 on: April 17, 2014, 06:05:28 AM »

(On that note, if anyone's got any ideas how the pages might look and wants to put together a mockup, that would be a great help.)


Seems preety straight forward how it should look, not so simple on gerbils side, but here is and alpha mockup


 http://i57.tinypic.com/rsyk9c.jpg

This should also be added? it might be easier (and more attractive) then posting a wall of text of the rules on the submit page?


 http://i59.tinypic.com/e871if.jpg

I think this is a big enough deal to consider this tsc 4.0 which I would like if possible for someone to create a new skin to celebrate?
on the flip side I would like to see when choosing to show emulated stats that your TSC version reverts to 3.9 with a little cob web on the sonic center sign in the top left... I dont think thats to much to ask?

alternatively you could just force the bad future skin when allowing emulated stats, and force good future skin when disabling them, if creating a whole new skin for the new tsc is to big of a task.
Cool, so now I know I know roughly what it looks like!

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2014, 11:34:03 PM »
A long time ago I had a vision of implemting a system to tsc I called the "emerald system" and I had an actual professional mock up with working gifs and neatly fitted them into the charts... basically I was gona rip off tsc and make my own site using this. but I never did and lost the mock up, but it basically looked like this...


http://i59.tinypic.com/153qxaq.jpg

now work with me here... how I had it, the names of 1st,2nd,and 3rd place were expanded to fit their emerald (3rd big, 2md bigger, 1st biggest).

this system would work as a different thing form sitewide rankings instead of replacing. I always saw sitewide rankings as kinda troll because, correct me if im wrong but it is technically its still possible to be sitewide champion without having a championship. (think about it, 2nd place in every chart on tsc)?

I always thought this system would honor those who try to be the best, instead of just simply flooding charts with half assed stats.

basically how this would work is for ever 1st, 2nd, or, 3rd place you got the site would award you with a master, super, or, chaos emerald.
Also if you tie a record or your record gets tied your emerald turns into a negitive emerald (as seen in sonic adventure).

how this works:
master emerald> negative master> super emerald> negative super> chaos emerald> negitive chaos

the purpose of this is to make sure elite players dont get owned by say... sondow sonic 3d blast ring chart garbage.

I know this basically doesnt have anything to do with whats going on, but since gerbilsoft is gona do stuff with the site I wanted to throw this suggestion in too.
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Offline Gpro

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Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #21 on: April 22, 2014, 01:04:18 PM »

As for the percentage, that's one of the things I wanted some feedback on. Could always tweak it to be in increments of 0.5% instead and max out at 5%? I don't think a set rate would be a good idea, because then you might end up with a situation on some less popular games where submitting a full chart with proof would get you more site points than being the champion, which is dumb.

edit: At a 10% rate, most popular games would grant you 10-15 sitewide points for a full set of proof. A lot of the less popular ones would be around 5.

Not sure if this was fully addressed, but if submitting proof would add to your percentage for games, what will happen to the Champs currently at 100%?  Requiring proof to add to the percentage would make it significantly more difficult to achieve this (not saying it's a bad idea), as it would also require proof for things deemed completely redundant to post proof of int he first place. An example being SADX Big's Emerald Coast, which is actually extremely easy to obtain. Even making a pic seems a little redundant to me. Maybe require proof for certain stats, or the majority of them (TA, RAs that are either deemed difficult and things of the sort, etc.), rather than all stats.

To be fair, the system I suggested would require a lot more customization, and I can see it being pretty flawed, requiring a personal perspective rather than a broader one, but I still think it should be addressed :P

Offline Parax

Re: Future feature additions - version differences, proof, chart filtering
« Reply #22 on: April 22, 2014, 02:13:57 PM »
Proof will not affect your standings on overall charts, the only thing that's being considered is a bonus to sitewide.

s&a: I think we'll be open to more feature suggestions later, but for now I wanna just get this stuff taken care of first. One thing at a time.

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