Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward


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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« on: May 09, 2015, 10:38:09 PM »
I've been brainstorming A LOT recently. considering all sides of the debate of the emulator/proof subject very carefully. I'm also keeping in mind the fact we have one dev in mind, equally as much. *this is very important, as our resources are limited*

I want to present an idea I've been tweaking in my head for awhile now,
and would like feedback.

Leaving all the current charts alone, I propose gerbilsoft select/copies all the charts, (hoping we have blank drafts of the charts or an easy way to do what I'm proposing) and duplicates them so when you click say "Site champions" it reads I.E. :

sonic 1
sonic 1 (Proven)
sonic 1 2013
Sonic 1 2013 (Proven)

etc.

all the "(Proven)" charts will be completely blank, the old charts will also remain.

all stats that go into the "proven" chart will REQUIRE video, or gerbilsofts coding will not let you pass (or send you to rick roll for not reading the rules)

alternatively, if you're one that just absolutely can not record your data for what ever reason you can still submit stats to the charts that arent "Proven". ***emulators are also permitted*** (given you are not purposefully cheating)
If you have a stat on the old chart with a video you can immediately move it over to the new chart. A stat on the new chart can also post to the old chart with no restrictions.

Incentives: for posting your stat on the proven chart you will earn 1.5 or 2 times the sitewide points. (yes, dss with 3k points hype) I know this will be more controversial, I'm just putting it out there but, I really dont want it to be the focus of the topic, but rather debated later.

Positives: a bunch of new charts to submit to. In the long run I think what will be most interesting is the competetion between the proven and unproven charts. For a long time Unproven charts will dominate, but it will be curious to see if players that can keep records can eventually overcome the recordless stats.
Players will also have an active archive on how to tweak strats in order to beat these faceless records

finally: all emulators are banned from "Proven" charts, all of them. with the exception of sonic games that are a pain in the ass to record the OEM versions, which also can be debated at a later time.
Also dont think that means you can cheat on the unproven charts! If you're found cheating you will STILL be banned!

Like I said I spent a lot of time thinking about this and I belive I found the best of all worlds here, proof, accessibility, and dev.

***IMPORTANT EDIT***
Zeupar gave me permission to show this from a hidden underground bunker: http://m.imgur.com/AWpYDuz

concept art from the shadows. He said he made this about a year ago. this is a very, yes, rough sketch, but study it thoroughly, a clean format to incorporate proof into the site, and a way to filter unwanted stats.

Im at a loss of what to say now tbh, im excited that admins are actually working on changes. not only Zeup, but FF said shes all in too, and idk what they have planned entirely, as im not apart of that secret place, (really wish working changes and concepts to the site werent hidden though tbh) but I do feel something pretty good is coming down the pipes :)

anyways, any feedback would be appreciated.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2015, 01:48:43 AM by Flim_flam_bsdetector »
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Offline FocusSight64

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Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #1 on: May 10, 2015, 02:32:34 AM »
I'm sorry, but I believe requiring video proof is not the way to go. It limits the competition you can have on the site and will honestly make less and less people want to compete than there currently are. Photo proof should be accepted as well.
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Offline TimpZ

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #2 on: May 10, 2015, 08:47:29 AM »
I don't think video proof is the end all solution for the site. But I think there's a big discrepancy in how valid a proof is considered depending on if it's an image or video.

It's easy to cheat with photo proofs even on console for a lot of games. For genesis games just enable debug and move while the timer is paused. If you have a video however, it's much trickier to fake. However if you have a video from an emulator with rerecording capabilities then it's easy as pie.

I'm not particularly against a "verified stat" system but I think some proofs should be valued more than others and currently I think emulator videos are extremely overrated in their value.

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #3 on: May 10, 2015, 09:00:05 PM »
I personally like this.
   
You still have the standard charts that go by…well the system that’s been in place since the beginning.

This will still work for players that use approved emulators, and for players that may not necessary be able to record (or want) to vid everything. (By want, I’m referring to more casual players that don’t intend on competing seriously enough to hit at least orange-tier but may play more for bit of fun).

Banning the approved emulators, especially when players that once took advantage of the emulator allowance that once existed names still exists on the charts. Isn’t going to make it any fairer. It’ll just piss off members that the ban is there for them, and not for those members. That’s my view on that.

Holding separate charts, takes into account of those above points. Casual players/players more comfortable on emu etc, can still compete on normal charts. However the proven charts are there as a good extension to reward players that refuse to use emulators (despite technically having an option to use approved emulators if they’d wish).  Enforcing video proof (and video proof only) for just the Proven charts is very reasonable. I’ve heard that picture proof can be too easy to fake. (probably depends on which game I guess). Either way, to be on “proven charts” a video is the most reliable option to deserve a spot on these charts. Having rewards as an incentive will force more videos out of people. For competition thats always a good thing.

So yeah. I think It’s that compromise that was needed last year as opposed to different sides arguing against each other. Instead there’s an active suggestion that focuses on both sides. Nice one S&A.

Though this is a minor issue….Whilst sitepoints was mentioned I’ve always thought red Tier should be top 10. Top 5 may have been suitable back in the earlier years…where 5th was easy to compete for…but now it most certainly isn’t. All those names in the top 10 spot, deserve to be red.  “Top 10” is what you look at, when there’s a list with many names. I don’t personally compete to get the highest site points, but I’m just writing this opinion for those that do and look up to those names at the very top. Of course I have no idea how difficult changing colours would be to encode, (as if maybe some it would require changing orange/yellow etc) but I’d assume considerably coding for this is easier than chart calculations but this isn’t priority as of right now. Just a future thought perhaps.....

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2015, 01:23:57 AM »
well, thank you.

My option is half nuclear, but at the same time destroys nothing, and adds a lot. the biggest thing I see is alot of new blank charts for new members to jump into and start competing. Even with a big incentive in sitewide, this isn't a handicap, old members have just as much opportunity (if not an advantage) as the new players.

I'm also aware we all have that level where we say " there's no way I'll be able to get THAT time/stat again!" Well then don't. Leave that up to the new players in the proven charts, and see what they can come up with. imo that will be the most interesting part to watch. Alt. you can help them by posting your run and seeing if it can be tweaked and made better.

I should also clairify im completely againt pictures as a form of proof, in the year 2015 a picture proof is as good as no proof, video should be the only way. its not just harder to manipulate, its EXTREMELY harder, even with the tools of today. If you have people who know what to look for, you're not getting away with anything.
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2015, 07:54:24 AM »
I'm sorry, but I believe requiring video proof is not the way to go. It limits the competition you can have on the site and will honestly make less and less people want to compete than there currently are.
Well proven charts for games would limit me to S06, Sonic 1 & 2 2013 & Rush, assuming these proven charts would come in for all current games. S06 I could do videos for easy, but Sonic 1 & 2 2013 & Rush there's no way in hell I could do video proofs, have you ever tried recording a DSi with an iPod camera & actually play the game at the same time? I've tried, and it's hard as fuck, and as for Sonic 1 & 2 2013, I'd have to get a jailbreak & a screen recorder, besides the jailbreak would make my iPod less stable and probably make the apps crash while I'm trying to record them. Granted I don't know for sure if that'll happen but I jailbroke my last iPod and it made some games unplayable.

I'm with Focus on this, requiring video proof is not the way to go here, because not everyone is gonna want to record everything just to compete on new charts. I'm not gonna put my iPod at risk or bother trying to record myself playing Sonic Rush on DSi just for more site wide points, it's not worth the time, the effort or the risk. However if you've got a better way to record DSi I'm all ears, I'd love to make videos showing my RA routes.

I realize it's been said that picture proof is easy to fake, but would the player submitting it honestly have any reason to fake their picture? This is a controversial statement, I know. Depending on your view, one might say there isn't any reason, whereas the next guy could name 10 reasons right off the bat. I think the question is, does the person submitting the picture honestly know how to fake it, cuz I don't. I've never touched photoshop in my lifetime. It does bring up the question "how do we know for sure so & so player didn't use photoshop?" Unless we're throwing this out the window soon, if we haven't done so already, the honor system. If it's found later the picture is fake, then that's that, and appropriate action would be taken.

This is just my take on all of this. Again if you have suggestions for recording my Sonic Rush stats I'm all ears. I'm not too crazy about recording Sonic 1 & 2 2013, but Rush yes, I'd love to make videos for that, I just need a way to record my DSi that doesn't make it impossible to play.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2015, 08:50:18 AM »
video proof is not required; you can still compete without it, in either proposals.

I would however, like the incentives to compete in the new charts to be worth it to invest in recording gear. realistically, most speed runners have some sort of recording gear in 2015, (dazzle/phone/elgato etc) so it's really a non issue.

Again,
You dont have to compete in the new charts,  its completely optional.
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Offline hfactor66

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Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2015, 11:11:33 AM »
realistically, most speed runners have some sort of recording gear in 2015, (dazzle/phone/elgato etc) so it's really a non issue.
Most serious speed runners, who would likely be the only people that would compete on such a chart where video proof is required. I'm not a serious speed runner, well I'm not even a speed runner, I'm an all-around player, and like I said I can't record everything I do right now, I don't have equipment to record my iPod or my DSi. I'm open to suggestions for recording these platforms and playing effectively.

I realize it's optional to compete on these charts, I'm saying if this becomes a thing I want to, but as of right now, that's not looking possible for most of the Sonic games I actually own.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 11:17:55 AM by AmyRoseFan »

Offline InferSaime

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2015, 01:48:19 PM »
Duplicating the charts is a redundant, stupid, unnecessary way to go about it however being able to filter which stats you'll be able to see (like only proved stats) would be much better. Also the incentive being site pts is a really bad idea and people will find a way to abuse this and hoard a bunch of site pts.

Most serious speed runners, who would likely be the only people that would compete on such a chart where video proof is required. I'm not a serious speed runner, well I'm not even a speed runner, I'm an all-around player, and like I said I can't record everything I do right now, I don't have equipment to record my iPod or my DSi. I'm open to suggestions for recording these platforms and playing effectively.

I realize it's optional to compete on these charts, I'm saying if this becomes a thing I want to, but as of right now, that's not looking possible for most of the Sonic games I actually own.
Not only serious players will, people who want to share strats will aswell and not to mention a lot of people aren't really a serious speedrunner even though they have a bunch of videos. (Also get a DS capture you'd be able to record and play)
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:22:45 PM by InferSaime »

Offline TimpZ

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2015, 02:27:09 PM »
https://www.zeldaspeedruns.com/leaderboards/oot/any

Notice that thing to the right that says "status"? The tick that says "verified"? I think that should be sufficient for all intents and purposes with an option of filtering it. All that's needed is to determine what is considered valid proof. A screenshot or video of an emulator I think shouldn't (at least depending on the emulator used, see the rules I wrote on speedrun.com). A screenshot of a TV or handheld could be depending on the game. A recorded video of a console should.

When it comes to point boosts I have no opinion since I never cared about them, I only care about the charts themselves and their legitimacy.

Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2015, 03:31:02 PM »
Duplicating the charts is a redundant, stupid, unnecessary way to go about it.

thank you.


And accept change. If you try to reject it, you'll only see the change that inevitably thrusts itself upon you, and that's usually not a nice kind. If you accept it, wonderful things can spring from it.


thank you for the input. Im not really sure how someone abuses the site wide point system... though that's not really important right now.

Im for either form of the change, since the end goals are both the same. I do have a few questions that I need to ask zeupar about first, that I forgot to ask him earlier before I'm all in.

I'm really just sitting here now, wondering if I need to actually be allocating all my resources into de-legitimizing emulators, I don't mean through nefarious ways either. I mean by going through fine tooth comb examination.

What I do not want to happen is, the site finally getting its well overdue beautiful revamp, and have fake stats ( mostly emulator stats) that have been dumping all over the site for years, go ahead and give them the greenlight to smear this crap on our new stuff.

I hear these cries saying "if you enforce  proof I'll leave!!" lol, Well guess what? I already left sonic colors, and sonic generations due to the LACK of proof. When you have a chart with a guy named "dophindude269" with no comment, no picture, no video. you have to consider if you really want to invest your time into trying to beat something that may be impossible. Well I choose not to, and competition is lost.

pick your poison
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Offline InferSaime

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2015, 03:49:30 PM »
You could have quoted more from me and not edited it. Anyway having duplicated charts is stupid I'm fairly sure nobody would want to duplicate them, nobody would want to resubmit their times to these too and who would you put in place to make sure that all of the stats that are submitted to these have proof? Having a filter or like TimpZ said having a tick that says verified is just outright better than duplicating the charts.

EDIT:  Apparently I forgot some words in my previous post, meant to say that filtering would be better.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2015, 04:16:55 PM by InferSaime »

Offline FocusSight64

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Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2015, 07:29:54 AM »
Lemme explain: There's a little thing called trust. To have an open, active and calm submission site, a little bit of trust is needed. If you force on the user to submit not only proof for every sub but video proof for EVERY SINGLE SUBMISSION, Just the concept of that for even part of a site that has all ILs is unbelievable. it will lower traffic on the site, even if it is an entire separate set charts. The advantages given by adding these I know one of the reasons I don't compete on TSC as much as I would like to is because I'm still on a proof per sub basis (though, for a logical reason). There's no need to force this onto every user, including those who have already tried doing this normally, those who have proven themselves trustworthy and those who are brand new to the site. I, for one, will almost be going completely inactive if TSC even partially forces video proof and causes it ti have such an advantage as this system is proposing. In all honesty, I no longer have a good amount of time to sit down, plug in my capture card, wait for Elgato to load, record a bunch of attempts that take up too much space on my laptop, edit out things like load times, process the video, upload the video to YT on my slow connection and then wait for it to be published. It's a long, tiring nuisance. The only time I'd ever try for video proof is if I know I am trying for WR or something close to that. If I'm not or don't think I will, I don't even try. It wastes more time than anything. I would like to record more video proof, but I'm busy with schoolwork, events and assignments. It's not that I don't like having a video. I've used videos to help me learn entirely new games and I'm sure that my videos have helped others find strats and learn games as well, but forcing everyone to do this to get the best possible placement for everything will make the site a systematic prison of submissions, without many actual submissions. It'll be death row for activity on TSC. It will almost force people who want to do well to get video proof. I can see this system either being unused or sbused, depending on the game. It's not fair when looking at the site as a whole.

Anyways, what I'm trying to show with this long rant is that video proof should not be the requirement for ILs. For SS, it makes sense. Those actually have a timer that is in real time and would need video proof to make sure that the run is done correctly. Forcing that for much smaller or more collection-type things, like short TAs, SAs and certainly the majority of RAs would be asking too much of ALL members of TSC. I know that this would increase the amount of subs that we know are true and would make the site more reliable as a whole. However, there's a fine line between reliability and activity for ILs. I agree: Videos are cool. They make a user and the site more accurate and believable. However, if you want more reliability, there's a high price to pay in activity. You cannot get both on a site like this. There will never be a good, equal compromise about this issue. I see the best possible thing being to make some sort of system that encourages video proof (as well as photo proof) but doesn't force it. That also means it has to be a fair system that doesn't cause those who do have proof to have so much of an advantage that a user with a bunch of shit stats that are proven can beat some person who has amazing stats but only a few are proven. That's the closest you can get to forced video proof without losing the majority of both new and old users and causing accessibility by new users to plummet. It's unrealistic in all honesty to have a system of proof like this and still expect the site to both have an active userbase and be fair to those who cannot get proof (this applies especially toward mobile and handheld games).

Having a system that shows proven and unproven stats would be easy to incorporate. (I'd usually go on a large rant as to how I already see these issues popping up in TSC fixed on CS, but I'm not going to due to the fact I shouldn't probably mention CS anymore here.) It would just need to be fair. I don't see how duplicate charts are a positive, however. You're just doing the same thing over again with a capture card or a camera. It's a bit silly if you asked me. If you could just see which ones were proven and which ones weren't on the same chart by clicking a check box or something, that could incorporate that same system without requiring twice the amount of charts TSC has. It would also keep the server faster and therefore have more potential to handle any incoming traffic.

S&A: If you think I'm hating on you just to do so, I'm not. I like the idea you have, it just needs to be reworked to allow accessibility and, in the end, be as fair as can be. As is, however, I don't see this system working well. It's just the fact that now to do well overall on the site, you'd have to make a video for every stat you do. It would be unfair to those who have no time or physically cannot afford to get video or even photo proof. Trust is a basic part of all sites where people submit things, whether it be comments, video game scores, valuables (e.g. an auction or on Amazon or such), trivia, etc. If we don't have trust in submissions as they are and if you truly think this system will add more than what it will take, then so be it. On the surface, nothing seems wrong. But if you dig underneath, you'll see the values and the intrinsic nature of sites like this being blown apart. Like a mine on a minefield. The ground seems fine to step on, but once you step on it, you won't live to tell about it.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2015, 08:22:07 AM by FocusSight64 »
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2015, 08:26:10 AM »
you might as well delete your first two long paragraphs because your arguing against something that nobody is asking for

by paragraph three you actually get to the point of the topic, and what your basically saying is you like zuepars proposal.

focus, I'm not trying to make you look silly, I'm taking time,trying to legitimately help you understand what is going on. focus on what you where talking about in your 3rd paragraph.
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Offline FocusSight64

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Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2015, 08:36:46 AM »
I was (trying to) make a statement on the fact that people are even considering having to force video proof even in part. I was poor at doing that as I'n still really tired. I understand exactly what is going on, I just don't like or want it to happen as it is. I discussed with Andrew about it and I feel that the incentives are what get me the most. The advantage is quite great. I believe this needs some fine tuning. Good ideas, good thoughts, bad execution. Rework how those ideas should be given.

Anyways, I'm not deleting the first two paragraphs. They're staying there to document my opinion about forcing proof at any point in anyway on any IL site. That's what it was meant for, that's where it will stay.

I'm getting to sleep.
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #15 on: May 16, 2015, 12:56:41 AM »
Sure, go right ahead, leave the poop right in here for everyone to smell, after all the topic isn't " realistic suggestions on moving forward". that was a typo I meant " realistic suggestions to keep TSC in the 90's"

If there is one thing I'm extremely good at it is fighting absurdity with absurdity.

I think we should change the site to "read only" because I know some people that play sonic that don't have a computer, and they said they would stop competing unless there is a designated P.O. box # that every time someone breaks a record, they can type up a letter (on a typewriter or it is void) and mail it USPS to the TSC headquarters where they will submit it in 7~10 business days. WE believe this honor system works the best because the competitor has to spend 48 cents in postage for every stat submitted.



Enough! I don't need someone to tell me my idea is stupid without posting an alternative, or someone arguing with the voices in their head. I was hoping to get fine tune tweaks. Even vastly new, critical thinking ideas were also welcome. all we/they/us are asking, is you submit a simple, single **optional** video with your stat, or prepare for your stats to be filtered out, with whichever change they go with.

for the record I've had enough time for study and think about zuepars set up, and I also 100% back this. I'm thinking about making a colored version to help ppl visualize and understand.
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Offline Starlight_Glimmer

Re: Realistic Suggestion On Moving Forward
« Reply #16 on: May 16, 2015, 09:57:28 AM »
hehe, random auidts would be a problem even for me. I dont have some of my sonic games anymore, and a lot of records I just dont remember how to do them.

That being said, I would reasonably consider it.

I'll tell you why with a short story from CS. While it wasn't exactly random, years later after I finished playing SRA and lost the game. I told someone here that I had lost it, or whatnot, so then alkathorn goes and request proof for all my stats. Of course now I can't prove them, so they are deleted.

I dont blame him either, back then I would of probably been a jerk and did the same thing too, just because I could. Here's the thing though, you won't find a topic on CS complaining about it, because it was MY fault I didnt keep proper records of my records. I believe if I want to compete on a high level, I need to be more responsible than that. While they are legitimate stats, maybe they do belong in the trash as CS believes.

just a thought.
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